Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor? (Read 16270 times)
Bill Lawrence
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1037
Joined: Mar 17th, 2014
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #15 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 9:38pm
Print Post  
The lag between the 1874 match and the 1879 patent is at least a quandary.  But for me, to suggest that Hepburn shot a rolling block that he felt compelled to boast he'd built himself seems a stretch.  Moreover, consider the following.

First, as Binger points out, there were 9 men on the 1874 American team.  Therefore, if the rifles used were split literally 50-50 between rolling blocks and Sharps side hammers, either one man had one of each type, or one had a rifle that was neither (and might well note that he'd made it himself).

Second, a note on the 1879 match cards (page 74 of Perry's book) states that whoever collected the data was "not familiar with his [Hepburn's] new rifle".  That match was held on 09/22-24/1879, two weeks before Hepburn's patent on the No. 3 rifle was granted (10/07/1879).   

Now Remington would not have been the first company to begin producing a product soon after a patent application date (here 04/21/1879).  Therefore, Hepburn could have shot one of those pre-patent No. 3s at the 1879 match.

Could the rifle Binger writes about be one of those?  Possibly, except for two things.  No other rifle like it is apparently known.  Moreover, the rifle illustrated in the patent looks exactly inside and out like the No. 3 we know and often love.  Binger's rifle doesn't, to the point that for me "Occam's Razor" suggests it truly is some type of prototype.

In short, for me, if Binger's rifle can be definitely shown to have been made by Hepburn, I'm more than happy to suggest it's not only a No. 3 prototype but quite likely a the gun Hepburn shot in the 1874 match.

Bill Lawrence

P.s.  For what it's worth, history is sometimes ironical.  John Browning's single shot - yes, that one! - and Heburn's were both issued patents on 10/07/1879 that were only 14 numbers apart (220271 and 220285, respectively).

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chuckster
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2238
Location: Colorado
Joined: May 15th, 2008
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #16 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 10:24pm
Print Post  
Don't know about 1879, but today it can be several years between patent application and patent granted.
Until then you have a "Patent Pending" which may or may not be marked.
Chuck
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Lawrence
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1037
Joined: Mar 17th, 2014
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #17 - Jan 20th, 2020 at 5:43am
Print Post  
As I mentioned in my previous note, the Hepburn patent was applied for on 04/21/1879 and was granted on 10/07/1879.  As things went back then, not quite 6 months in between was relatively quick.  But the real point is that the patent was not even applied for until the design (and likely the production layout) was at least largely finalized.  Which to me suggests that the actual development time probably extended for some considerable time beforehand, perhaps indeed several years.

Bill Lawrence
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16272
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #18 - Jan 20th, 2020 at 11:23am
Print Post  
Bill, I have no reason to doubt Dick Binger's "Prototype" is indeed what many think it is; the prototype for the Hepburn rifle. But that does nothing to confirm it would be used in the 1874 match. It could easily have been shot in later matches of 1879 though, and I'd think that's a very good chance after he applied for the patent.
But to reiterate my previous thoughts, it would be odd to use a gun publicly for 5 years before a patent was applied for it, and submit it to public scrutiny that long. 
It would not be at all odd for Hepburn to make guns from scratch, and he had a history of doing so at Remington, and at Marlin after leaving Remington when they filed bankruptcy. And often those guns were already in production when Hepburn built one from scratch. His reasons for doing so were to attempt to make improvements to existing designs. He had his own stamp, and often stamped the bottom side of barrels of guns he put his hands on with "LL HEPBURN" in block letters.
So whether Hepburn made the gun isn't a question to me. Whether he shot it in 1874 is the question.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Old-Win
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1692
Location: Minnesota
Joined: Nov 24th, 2005
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #19 - Jan 20th, 2020 at 12:31pm
Print Post  
This is taken from an article written by Colonel Wingate on the first Creedmoor match. "LL Hepburn was a practical gunmaker employed by Remington. He had made with his own hands the guns which he and Fulton used." This could mean that Hepburn took over a spot on the line and built the rifles instead of other workmen and gave them his personal touch. I have pictures of Fulton's rifle when it sold at auction 9 or 10 years ago. It looks like a standard rolling block Creedmoor rifle.This makes me think that Hepburn's probably looked the same. Remember, this was the first match and the shooters only started in March with the arrival of the Sharps and the Rollers from the companys.  Did Hepburn already determine that new changes should be made in that short of a time period? Probably not . This makes me think the rifle that Richard Binger has, was not used in 1874.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16272
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #20 - Jan 20th, 2020 at 6:57pm
Print Post  
Old-Win wrote on Jan 20th, 2020 at 12:31pm:
This is taken from an article written by Colonel Wingate on the first Creedmoor match. "LL Hepburn was a practical gunmaker employed by Remington. He had made with his own hands the guns which he and Fulton used." This could mean that Hepburn took over a spot on the line and built the rifles instead of other workmen and gave them his personal touch. I have pictures of Fulton's rifle when it sold at auction 9 or 10 years ago. It looks like a standard rolling block Creedmoor rifle.This makes me think that Hepburn's probably looked the same. Remember, this was the first match and the shooters only started in March with the arrival of the Sharps and the Rollers from the companys.  Did Hepburn already determine that new changes should be made in that short of a time period? Probably not . This makes me think the rifle that Richard Binger has, was not used in 1874.


I think that makes more sense, and is what I thought long ago when I read LL Hepburn's comment about building his gun all with his own hands. It simply meant it was not a factory rifle that he chose off the line to modify for himself. Instead he gathered all the necessary components and did all the fit, finish, and assembly to ensure it was as perfect as possible. But still a Rolling Block.
Hepburn was known to be a hands on superintendent whether it was at Remington, Marlin, or even at home. He had no problem building every component of a gun, and did so often.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Lawrence
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1037
Joined: Mar 17th, 2014
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #21 - Jan 20th, 2020 at 11:26pm
Print Post  
Still, for all of that and as I noted, the Hepburn's 1879 patent drawing shows a rifle that looks like the one we know, not the Binger-owned prototype.  Therefore, before I'm willing to entertain that said prototype was what Heburn shot at the 1879 match, let me ask this:  Has anyone seen or heard of a Remington-made No. 3 that either has no patent date stamped thereon or is stamped with some version of "PATENT APPLIED FOR"?

Bill Lawrence
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16272
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #22 - Jan 21st, 2020 at 11:03am
Print Post  
Bill Lawrence wrote on Jan 20th, 2020 at 11:26pm:
Still, for all of that and as I noted, the Hepburn's 1879 patent drawing shows a rifle that looks like the one we know, not the Binger-owned prototype.  Therefore, before I'm willing to entertain that said prototype was what Heburn shot at the 1879 match, let me ask this:  Has anyone seen or heard of a Remington-made No. 3 that either has no patent date stamped thereon or is stamped with some version of "PATENT APPLIED FOR"?

Bill Lawrence


I've never seen "Patent applied for" on a Hepburn, but I've seen receivers with no rollstamp on the lower left side. And Tom Rowe's book shows a Hepburn Match rifle on p. 13 without the rollstamp. But the same gun has no serial number either, so I question if it might have had both removed during a restoration?
A Hepburn, or any gun, without a rollstamp may mean nothing if we don't know if it's ever been restored. Once a gun has over 100 years of ownership the lack of markings tells us nothing, unless we know it's as it left the factory.

But Tom Rowe also shows another "prototype" Hepburn he has in his collection and is pictured on p. 10-11 of his book. It looks more like a Hepburn than the other prototype, but still not an exact look to what the Hepburn became. His gun came from the Remington museum via John Amber, so it appears to have the provenance of having been in the museum. He states it has no serial number, and unknown where it might fall in the evolution of Hepburns. So was it a redesign, or simply an early design that didn't get to production? 
This brings up another good point. When we see a design that's similar to an existing patented design is the new one a prototype to the final patent, or was it built later in an attempt to find a design easier to manufacture, or more pleasing to the eye of customers? How do we know it predates anything?
One thing we do know is that LL Hepburn kept himself busy working on design his entire life. So it's always possible different designs might be upgrades, and not developmental prior to patenting.
« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2020 at 11:12am by marlinguy »  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint