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.22-5-40
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Back To Black?
Feb 15th, 2011 at 1:03pm
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Hello, everyone.  I gave up on black powder about 1990, as I was discusted with the then available Goex's fouling problems..where I shot..we didn't even know about blow-tubes yet!  Now I am hearing good reports of the Swiss powders.  I have purchased a couple of original rifles and, though I have used smokeless in this type of rifle before..These are very old and quite frankly..would be uneasy using smokeless in them.   
  Now then..I have all the proper bullets, lubes, etc.  MY question is cleaning.  Not too thrilled with using plain hot water..what do you think of a Ballistoil/water mix, or Ballistoil/Murph's Oil soap/water mix..that is heated to near boiling & poured thru breech?  I thought with some oil in there, the steel would have less of a tendency to flash-rust?
   What are your opinions on this?  Thanks! Smiley
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #1 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 1:56pm
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Blowing after every shot with Swiss powder does not result in a build up of fouling for me. I can continue shooting over a hundred shots without wiping or cleaning.

To clean I use 10 % Kutwell water soluble cutting oil mixed with 90% winter windshield fluid. No need to heat up. Two or three wipes cleans my barrel. Then I run dry patches through to remove excess fluid. 

A 10% mix with Ballistol will do the same thing.

For humid areas some people use WD40 to coat the barrel before storing. I wipe my barrel with bore butter after I clean.

If you have hard carbon fouling a warmer solution may work better; but I do not seem to get any hard fouling since I blow after each shot.

If you are getting hard fouling after blowing on each shot then your lube may not be performing as well as it should; or your powder may not be burning sufficiently.

I also use magnum primers to help burn or clean up fouling that would be left by unburned powder.

« Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2011 at 2:07pm by Schuetzendave »  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #2 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:56pm
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The more you heat the water, the quicker it can cause rust - don't overdo it, just wipe with wet patches on a tight jag, using a cold solution or even plain water.  No pouring stuff through the barrel needed - it's a barrel, just clean it!  After using wet patches, dry the barrel thoroughly with a few dry patches and then run an oiled patch through, and you're finished.  No need for all that worrying....
  
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kodiak1
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #3 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 4:56pm
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Schutzendave
Winter Windshield wash contains a certian amount of METHANOL in from my understanding (I could be wrong for sure on that) and from what I have seen with methanol at work that shtuff corrodes even stainless steel.  It is definetly not steel friendly.
Methanol mixed with water 35% methanol to 65% water is good to 35 below zero.

I use straight water and drypatch then bore butter.

Ken.
  

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Fred Boulton
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #4 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 5:11pm
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Windscreen washer fluid contains alcohol---probably methanol.
I ahve using it for more than 20 yrs as a black powder solvent, since Bill Curtis put me on to it. I finish cleaning with a couple of WD40 soaked patches. How can alcohol corrode steel??
Fred
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #5 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 6:33pm
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Fred Boulton wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 5:11pm:
Windscreen washer fluid contains alcohol---probably methanol.
I ahve using it for more than 20 yrs as a black powder solvent, since Bill Curtis put me on to it. I finish cleaning with a couple of WD40 soaked patches. How can alcohol corrode steel??
Fred


I don't have experience with methanol corroding steel, but we used to run a couple of drag cars on methanol. All of the seals and the fuel cells had to be reworked or the methanol would dissovle them within a few hours.

Chris.

  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #6 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 7:20pm
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Windshield Washer Fluid - Cleaner is a Methanol free concentrate Windshield Washer Fluid compound, to remove the bugs bird droppings, trees sap, traffic film and road grimes from Windshield Glass. Windshield Cleaner is an environment friendly product and free from volatile organic compound. Windshield Cleaner does not affect the wiper parts made of rubber, metal and also paint of the automobiles body. Windshield Washer Fluid is suitable in all seasons.

According to the chemists who make windshield cleaners.
  
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38_Cal
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #7 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 11:28pm
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"Why blackpowder has a reputation for rusting bores is twofold.  One, the fouling is hydroscopic, and absorbs moisture from the air.  That moisture causes the rust.  Two, old time primers were very caustic.  I think that the primers contributed as much to "blackpowder rusting and pitting" as did the powder residues."

You make some very good points, Dave.  If you look at antique flintlock rifles, they don't show near the pitting and erosion on the outside of the barrel at the vent as percussion rifles only a few years younger do around the nipple and drum...the difference being the corrosive effects of the percussion caps in use until relatively recently.

David
  

David Kaiser
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henpeckedmuch
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #8 - Feb 18th, 2011 at 12:34pm
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I agee with the last two entres and would like to add one other reason B/P fouling is so corrosive. The residue from fired B/P when mixed with moisture becomes several different types of acid. One of them I believe is sulfuric acid I used to remember the other types but have forgotten.
Cleaning the rifle after fireing is very important. But, if leading is left in the bore, the powder residue under the leading will hydoscopically collect moisture, turn into sulfuric acid, and  turn your barrel into death valley in short order.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #9 - Feb 19th, 2011 at 11:43am
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Forget about the acid thing - BP fouling actually is pretty alkaline, no acid anywhere, even when mixed with moisture.  Very easy to test...
  
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BP
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #10 - Feb 19th, 2011 at 4:37pm
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Just curious - has anyone conducted a test with a pH indicator? 
  

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #11 - Feb 20th, 2011 at 10:46am
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I'll refer to a quote from Bill Knight AKA "the Mad monk" on BP fouling and more specifically re. this 'urban myth':

"The idea that black powder combustion produces sulfuric acid is a lot of nonsense.
The residue left by the combustion of black powder in the gun is highly alkaline. Collected bore fouling showed a pH of around 11 in a few of my tests. Potassium carbonate, or potash, is the primary solid product of powder combustion. Roughly 3 to 4 parts of potash for every part of potassium sulfate. As soon as the fouling picks up even traces of moisture any sulfurous or sulfuric acid would be neutralized.

The charcoal used in propellant grades of black powder will show fixed carbon contents of 65% to around 80%, depending on the source of the charcoal. If the charcoal had been heated above 320 C during the charring there will be no liquid hydrocarbons remaining in the charcoal. When charred at 320 to 350 C there will be measurable amounts of liquid hydrocarbons remaining in the charcoal. Some chars may be 6 to 10% creosote by weight of char. The liquid hydrocarbon(s) then being the source of water as a product of combustion. "

But - with a pH-indicator, anyone can do these tests...
  
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trapdoor Dick
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #12 - Feb 20th, 2011 at 5:50pm
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Good grief MB, there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.  Mid-late '80's near the end of M/L barrel blow-ups, I was Hunter/Safey Ed cooordinator with the NMLRA. The Mad Monk and I spent endless days and hours going over this stuff. He is considered "Mad" by some, but I have yet to find any errors in his findings. I've still got the copies of all his "books" on this subject plus samples  of various projects he worked on constantly. Haven't talked to him in a while. Guess I ought to give him a call and see if'n he's still on the "green side." Thanks for reminding me MB, it is appreciated.

Dick
  

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Chuckster
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #13 - Feb 20th, 2011 at 10:30pm
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, But would not this test be simple as Litmus paper on a water wet patch that had been run through a fresh fired bore. I had always believed the sulphuric acid story and used an alkline cleaning solution. Maybe I learned something.
Chuck    
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Back To Black?
Reply #14 - Feb 21st, 2011 at 1:57pm
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Chuck,  Totally correct...   Very easy to test indeed.  it's not because BP contains sulphur, that sulphuric acid is formed.
  
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