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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Turned brass cases? (Read 16381 times)
Green_Frog
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #15 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 8:10am
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Just to add a new wrinkle (no pun intended) I would inquire whether the shooting folks are talking about is with smokeless or black powder?  I ask because with Civil War era rifles and repros used for skirmishing, if they were originally percussion fired cartridges such as the Maynard, turned brass is about all the brass that is available.

My Maynard brass has all been fired quite a few times (probably 15-20 for most batches) and a good friend has some that has over 100 firings.  It occasionally needs to be sized either to hold the bullet or more likely because it has grown too large a diameter to enter the chamber.  Neither or us has ever had a case fail under the situation described.  Just curious as to how this all fits the discussion???  Huh

Froggie
  
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #16 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 9:52am
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The everlasting 32-40 cases I have from RMC, were bought for BlackPowder loads.  I have had case seperations with BlackPowder in regular brass, when breech seating, never with everlasting brass.
  
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.22-5-40
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #17 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 12:44pm
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Wow!  Look what I started!  Very good stuff.  The only other experiance I have had with turned cases, are those I turned up from bar stk. for the .577 Snider & .577/.450 Martini-Henry.  These were closer to "everlasting" cases..as I did a chamber cast & turned to .001" so as not to have to resize.  The .450 M.H.  was made with reduced capacity..70gr. instead of 80+ of originals..leaves nearly 1/2" stock in head area & LONG flash hole!  It is my understanding that a turned case, as compared to a drawn one, is more like a casting..there are no "flow lines".  Very good stuff guy"s!
  
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rmc
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #18 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 2:54pm
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Gentlemen,

This is Dave at Rocky Mountain cartridge,  I thought I would step in and give a bit of info  as there seems to be a miss understanding on  brass 
There are a few that have the right basic idea but here is some technical data for the  brass alloys used.
Alloys are made for the respective use and manufacturing process.  for example the typical brass alloy for drawing type of manufacture of cartridge cases is the UNS C260,  the alloys for machining manufacturing process is typically UNS C360.  there are other alloys for specific applications but the C260 and C360 are the main two alloys used for our pirposes.
All brass was molten at one point and then cast into a billet , cut to size and sent through forming machines this  drawing and or rolling process to make the round bar stock.flat plate and other shapes,  So the C360 bar is formed into shape just like the C260 . In this process the bar becomes hard from work hardening  and is then annealed to a specific hardness at the mill.
The chemical composition or make up of the C260 uses 70%copper and 30%zinc nominally  and C360 uses61.5% copper, 35.5% zinc and 3.% lead nominally
The C360 bar stock I have available to me is the half hard temper ,
The comparison of the physical properties of a 1." dia bar of C260 1/2 hard temper brass and a C360 bras 1/2 hard temper gives a tensile strength of 70 KSI for C260 and a tensile strength of C360 is 68.0 KSI, the yeild strength of the 260 bar is 52.0 KSI and the yield strength for the 360 bar is also 52.0 KSI , the % of elongation in 2" for 260 is 30% and for the 360 is 28%.
So the two alloys are very close in physical propertiy , the C360 just ghas a little more lead in the make up to produce an alloys  that is free cutting for the manufacturing process.   Strength properties are virtually the same
continued
  
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #19 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 3:27pm
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Brass continued

I am not sure why some individuals have great results using drawn and turned brass and some do not,
I have sent  turned cases to customers that had a problem with them and had them return them for a refund, and then sent the same cases  to another ,and they were thrilled with them.
As with all cases they have to be the correct size for the chamber they are going to be used in and they all have to be maintained for maximum case life by annealing correctly from time to time
The amount of work hardening varies with each individual set up , the more the case is moved in each loading, fireing sequens,e the more often the case will need annealing on the neck. How often? that is a variable you have to find out for your respective  use.  All the pieces of the puzzle need to match for maximum performance   dies must match the chamber as well.
For the ability to form  C360 brass, it is very malleable when annealed correctly, for an example when I make 577-450 MH cases they are .585 ID at the neck and are formed down to .458 in two different dies thats .119 change in dia if you do the math.
Being turned, the case will have a very slight machine mark on the case wall but that is not a problem unless your chamber is changed from age and neglect or altered in some way from its original new condition and size or is not polished well  I typically polish chambers with 600 grit when I cut a chamber and have never had a case stick 
The mark from turning is virtually gone after two tumblings if you use a tumbler on your brass.
As with every thing there is nothing that will last forever, I have factory drawn brass that has failed sooner than turned cases and also the other way around.........
For the longest brass life, the closer the case fits the respective chamber, and the correct mainenense of the case, will give you the best case life be it a drawn or turned case.
Thanks,
Dave Casey
  
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MIKE-T
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #20 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 5:10pm
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Dave thanks so much for the very informative two posts, wish I could get to my metallurgy books and find out what KSI is in PSI, sorry I'm a old timer and don't know the metric system, at least not well enough to do the conversion without a book & calculator.

Thanks again,
MIKE-T
  
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #21 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 5:41pm
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Mike,
I do not know of a conversion either, The figures I have quoted are from the brass suppliers technical data and also the material data sheets I recieve with each order of brass for composition and alloy certification from the mill  who supplied the brass.
Also on the price difference, from drawn brass compared to turned brass, Yes, there is quite a bit due to the fact I start with a piece of brass , and remove the majority during the machineing,in chips, leaving in some instances ,1/3 or less than I stated with, and at just shy of $5.00/ lb  that adds up very quickly, especially with large size cases. 
I do recycle the chips but only get cents on the dollar as compared to the initial cost, and is factored back into the price.
The benefit is the ability to offer a case to a very specific dimension when required ,that cannot be achieved with a drawn case  unless it is dimensionally close to start with.
Then if you fiqure your time in for the alteration, turned cases dont look so bad in comparison...................

Dave
  
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #22 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 6:46pm
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Dave, If I had a place to put all my books that are in storage I'd have the conversion factor if there is one.
I have been more than satisfied with your turned cases, I will be ordering more in the future!
Having been a machinist all of my life I understand the extra time factor in producing the cases to someones chamber specs. 
Some years ago I turned a couple cases when some were needed in a hurry, if I had known about you, I could have bought 20 for the material, time and effort put into 2.

Thanks again for the informative response,
MIKE-T
  
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #23 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 7:11pm
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Dave, thanks--I can now see through this muddy water--I was having a hard time believing that machined brass was somehow weaker than[not as good as]  drawn brass.  ledball
  
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #24 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 1:04pm
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I found this while looking for another picture in my pictures. It's the leak that gas cut my chamber. 

        Joe.  Smiley

  

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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #25 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 10:43pm
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Not sure, but I read KSI as thousands of PSI, 20 KSI =20,000 PSI. Would guess the base of a drawn case is closer to full hard than half hard. Full hard is significantly stronger. Not sure it makes any difference for the kind of pressures we are talking about.
Chuck
  
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #26 - Jan 24th, 2011 at 3:33am
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Chuckster,
I talked to Starline a few years ago and they said that on the higher pressure cartridges that they struck the brass more times to harden it for the pressure requirement. The context was the difference between  38 Super,9mm Largo, 9mm Win Mag and 9x23, all basically the same cartridge.


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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #27 - Jan 24th, 2011 at 6:53pm
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #28 - Jan 24th, 2011 at 6:55pm
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Re: Turned brass cases?
Reply #29 - Jan 24th, 2011 at 6:56pm
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