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John in PA
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Dec 30th, 2010 at 7:16pm
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What are the rifling specs?  Overall length of each bullet?
  

John Wells
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #1 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 10:35pm
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Our club shoots a monthly lever or single shot 200 yard offhand match. Guys using Smokless in 45/70's fall into two camps.  10 grs of Unique or 22-24 grs of 4759 Either one is giving Black powder velocities.

I used to use the fast pistol powder loads in my Trapdoors for this match but am working on a Marlin 1895 45/70 now  Am going to go with a light flat nose bullet out of a Raphine mold 366 grs cast from 1/25 and a light charge of 4759 about 22 grs.  The Unique loads show too much elevation inconsistency for me.

Light rifle like the Marlin and a 40 shot with sighters and shoot off's match recoil is a key factor. Holding it's elevation well at 200 is important too.

Having said all that the match winning rifle is a 38/55 single shot most of the time.  I just want to see if I can get the 45/70 lever gun to perform. On Targets recoil is the problem with 45/70's 

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frnkeore
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #2 - Dec 30th, 2010 at 11:25pm
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Ken,
You will not be disappointed with 10 gr Unique with the 395 gr bull at 100. I've shot .62 groups with that load breech seated at 100. The 525 gr bullet, I can't say. I think it will do well, too. The bullet I used was a NEI spitzer that weighted 430 in 20/1 and 409 with 2% tin and WW. Recoil is very light it shoots at 972 fps. I have a killer duplex (kills on both ends) smokeless load that goes about 1430-50 fps, as I remember.

Frank
  

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zrifleman
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #3 - Dec 31st, 2010 at 3:20am
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Ken---The 10 gr load of unique is a recipe for ringing your chamber. I used to use 15 grs of unique with a dacron/polyester over powder wad under a 350 Saeco bullet but have moved away from partial case loads of fast powder,  due to the many instances of chamber ringing from this type of load. You did not say what the rate of twist would be. An excellent smokeless powder choice is IMR 3031.
  
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #4 - Dec 31st, 2010 at 8:12am
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Boys you are both right.  

My experience with the 45/70 and 10 of Unique started at the Fairfax R&G club Ram bash 20 years ago. It was the winning load in Trapdoors and I think held the record for Rams hit at 200 yards.  I was always afraid of it however Double charging a Trapdoor is not a good thing spent a lot of time double and triple checking. It never shot well for me either.  I gave up Smokeless Trapdoor loads and went to the 38/55 & 32/40 about 1993  Since only shoot my Trapdoors with Black Powder

Bring it up to today and We shoot that same match at our Club. Spotting other shooters I often see high and low shots they can't explain, most using light charges of pistol powder.  Working up loads for a Cowboy Silhouette 32/20 Lever gun with 4.5 of Unique found the same thing high and low shots, This time pinned it down with bench testing.  Mount the gun muzzle down it's low raise the muzzle and put it on the bags it's high. Powder position is key to getting good performance with light loads of Unique

You could improve the elevation inconsistency by adding Wads but then the Chamber ringing possibilities come up.  Given all the trouble checking for double charges worrying about how the gun is mounted and all Unique for 45/70 loads is not worth the trouble.  Thinking back I suspect my problem with Unique and performance was the way I was handling the rifle

4759 can show some sensitivity to how the gun is handled but not as much as other less than case filling powders.  Best practice is to handle the gun same way every time no matter what powder you use.

Negative on 4759 is how it measures. I throw mine in a Belding and Mull and trust it thrown not weighed. Most measures won't throw consistent charges though and weighing is best.

To throw another powder out there I think but don't know for sure 4227 will give the same performance as 4759 in 45/70's and measure better. It does so in my 38/55 no real difference in how it shoots

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screwloosetc
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #5 - Dec 31st, 2010 at 8:46am
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Ken
My best groups have been shot with 2400 & 3031 at 100yds with the 45/70, Carefull the new 2400 is faster than the old.
Tom
  
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #6 - Dec 31st, 2010 at 4:27pm
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I have found that 19 to 23 gr of IMR 4759 works great with a 420 gr bullet, 22 gr works great with a 500 gr bullet, recoil is noticable with the heavier bullet. Also had good luck with Accurate Arms 5744, 23 gr with 420 gr bullet. I have a number of 45-70s, Sharps and trapdoors, and these loads work very well in all of them. Joe S
  
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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #7 - Dec 31st, 2010 at 5:37pm
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Target covers a lot of possibilities. It depends very much on what you are shooting and how.  Offhand with light rifles out to 200 yards mild loads will outscore heavy ones every time, as long as they are consistent burning.

Others may be good but that 22-24 gr 4759 load is one you can count on.

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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #8 - Dec 31st, 2010 at 8:19pm
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Using the 500+ grain bullets is overkill for 100/200 yards--they were designed for long range.  And they fare better with faster twists.  But in the right rifle they can be accurate. 
My first couple years in ASSRA I used a Browning B-78 light barrel hunting style 45-70. (With a sporter-weight fast-twist factory Badger barrel----long story) I used the 500 grain nosepour Lyman-Matthews bullet, breech seated, over 25+ gr 5744.  Off bench-rest bags the heavy-bullet/heavy-load recoil gets your attention, and firing a couple hundred rounds over a match weekend verges on insanity.  its not a practice I'd recommend.
BUT . . . . .  it was the only single shot I owned at the time   AND toward the end of the first season I was shooting low 240 scores on the Schoyen target-----I've never scored that well reliably with my other guns.  The etna green winds were a non-issue.

you might rat out Matthews books on the 45-70 he has a lot of loading data.  Its been a while since I looked at them and they tend to be a bit BPCR and hunting oriented, but the 200 yard "chicken loads" might help
  

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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #9 - Dec 31st, 2010 at 9:58pm
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rafter3c wrote on Dec 31st, 2010 at 9:39pm:
DWS8130 <snip> Still recoil is not my friend. <snip> Ken


Ken, better you than Al, from my conversations with him a few years back!

David
  

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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #10 - Jan 1st, 2011 at 5:27pm
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Ken,
These are my 45/70 groups, shot with a 1878 Sharps, 31" Douglas Benchrester barrel (1.13 straight octagon). All BSed loads with a standard 45/70 chamber and a 430 gr NEI non tapered spitzer. All shot at 100 yards.

Left to right,
25 gr 296, F210, 1.2 group
15 gr 296, 27.5 4831 (duplex), F210, .60 group
10 gr 296, 75 gr (bulk) FG, F210, .80 group (3 in .20)
10 gr Unique, F150, .72 group
 
Frank
  

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Re: Target loads for 45/70 needed
Reply #11 - Jan 1st, 2011 at 10:09pm
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I have a 45-70 built on a Greener shotgun action. I think it was made by SARCO several years ago. I never could get it to shoot less than a four inch group at 100yds. With 13.0 gr. of Trailboss and a 405 gr. lead bullet at about 1000 fps it shoots one inch groups. The recoil feels like a .22 rimfire. Maybe not that light.
  
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