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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antimony (Read 13404 times)
creedmoormatch
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Re: Antimony
Reply #15 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 6:28pm
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 Hard bullets oversize work, soft bullets undersized work.  You can have good results either way.  
Boats


   What would be the expected result of;
                                                          soft bullets oversize ?
  What accuracy, and what bore leading ?

  Creedmoormatch
  
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boats
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Re: Antimony
Reply #16 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 8:26pm
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It's difficult to cast a bullet too soft for a single shot target rifle. As long as velocity is reasonable -under 1400 fps or so it's not going to cause any problems at all.  Only real reason tin is added to the mix is to help mold fill out.

Go fast what will happen ? I don't know, never saw the reason to push one fast.   I have fired thousands of .30 cals at 1600 fps with Gas checks and 1/25 tin-lead and no problems. Go faster than that I use jacketed bullets.

Boats
  
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texasmac
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Re: Antimony
Reply #17 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 8:35pm
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Keep in mind that if you go oversize too much, base fining (spelling ?) will result, which will have a negative effect on accuracy.  I would definitely not go more than 0.002" oversize regardless of the hardness.

Wayne
  

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texasmac
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Re: Antimony
Reply #18 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 9:05pm
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The following is my rule of thumb without gas checks:
For 800-1000 fps range the alloy should have a BHN of 12 or below.
For 1000-1400 fps, a BHN of 12 to 16 is needed.
For velocities of 1400 to 1700 fps the BHN needs to be in the range of 14 to 20.
Above 1700 requires a BHN of around 22 - linotype or heat treated bullets are required.
Remember, the above is without gas checks.  If gas checks are used to help mitigate leading, my rule of thumb changes and softer lead can be used at higher velocities.

One final thing to keep in mind, at high velocities soft lead bullets can reach a point where they literally "blow up" (disintegrate) once they leave the barrel due to centrifugal force.  Of course that also depends on the twist rate.  If I remember correctly, at around 2000 to 2200 fps pure lead is reported to disintegrate in a 1:10 twist barrel such as a .30-30, .30-06 or .270.

Wayne

  

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joeb33050
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Re: Antimony
Reply #19 - Oct 17th, 2010 at 12:14pm
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My often incorrect arithmetic says that a .308 caliber bullet in a 10" twist barrel has to be going 2528 fps to "blow up".
For the aticle see the WORD and EXCEL files in UPDATES in FILES in (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links);

joe b.


texasmac wrote on Oct 14th, 2010 at 9:05pm:

One final thing to keep in mind, at high velocities soft lead bullets can reach a point where they literally "blow up" (disintegrate) once they leave the barrel due to centrifugal force.  Of course that also depends on the twist rate.  If I remember correctly, at around 2000 to 2200 fps pure lead is reported to disintegrate in a 1:10 twist barrel such as a .30-30, .30-06 or .270.

Wayne


  
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texasmac
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Re: Antimony
Reply #20 - Oct 17th, 2010 at 12:49pm
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Hi Joe,

You could be right.  As I said, "If I remember correctly...".  No doubt I've lost a few million brain cells since storing away the data some time ago.  By the way, is your calculation of 2528 fps based on pure lead or the harder stuff typically fired in .30 caliber rifles?

Wayne
  

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joeb33050
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Re: Antimony
Reply #21 - Oct 17th, 2010 at 3:16pm
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Pure lead. After spending entirely too long on the subject, I came to an opinion that the blow up of bullets including jacketed 22s had to do with either imagination or a damaged = cut or bent or off-center or ? bullet.
joe b. 

texasmac wrote on Oct 17th, 2010 at 12:49pm:
Hi Joe,

You could be right.  As I said, "If I remember correctly...".  No doubt I've lost a few million brain cells since storing away the data some time ago.  By the way, is your calculation of 2528 fps based on pure lead or the harder stuff typically fired in .30 caliber rifles?

Wayne

  
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joeb33050
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Re: Antimony
Reply #22 - Nov 27th, 2010 at 6:57am
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Wednesday, 11/24/10, I shot ~ 30 each Borton-Darr 185 gr., 311299 no g.c.., 314299 no g.c. from a Martini 12/15 30-30 bench gun. Bullets were WW, load Rem 2 1/2, 14.5 IMR 4227, breech seated, 1/16" plastic wad in the case neck. No leading.
joe b.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Antimony
Reply #23 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 3:10pm
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Saturday, 11 December 2010, I shot 49 308403 pb bullets sized .3095 over 10/Unique, Rem 9 1/2 M, Dacron wad over powder, bullets cast by Howard Brenner, hard, antimony!!!
Not a smidgin of lead. 
It looks like if the bullet is the right size, no lead with antimony in the alloy. You guys who see lead, what is the bore/groove/bullet dia. of the offenders?
joe b.
Inquiring Liberals want to know!
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Antimony
Reply #24 - Jan 20th, 2011 at 10:27am
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1/19/11 45-70 C. Sharps 1875, I shot 84 WW bullets, 2 different bullets, 3 loads. No leading except one extremely small dot of lead.
All plain based bullets, 457193 and Ohaus 45-405. 
Does antimony = leading for plain based bul;lets at lower velocities??
The answer seems to be NO.
Can one get antimony-containing PB bullets to lead??
Yes, if too small or going too fast or a combination.
I believe too small is the most frequent cause.
joe b.
  
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Re: Antimony
Reply #25 - Jan 20th, 2011 at 11:59am
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I have one rifle, that due to an oversized throat geatly prefers very hard bullets. I use an alloy that is pretty close to linotype in hardness and it shoots reasonably well (1.5-2.0 moa with Goex at 200m). I've never had any noticeable leading and I've put around 500 rounds through this rifle so far. The bullets are 0.001" over groove diameter though.

With that said, I have a new mould coming that ought to work better with my rifles throat while using more " conventional " alloys.

Chris.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Antimony
Reply #26 - Feb 5th, 2011 at 6:14am
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2/3/11 C. Sharps 45/70 457193 and Wolf No-Grease-Groove WW bullets, Buffalo Arms plastic wad,  24/SR4759, Rem 2 1/2. No lead. 100 yard 5 shot groups averaged 1.75" and 1.7".   
The antimony isn't a problem yet. Maybe the Maynard 32-35 will lead with WW bullets, thou8gh it hasn't in 20 years.
joe b.
  
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Re: Antimony
Reply #27 - Feb 19th, 2011 at 10:43am
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I gave Bob Hardy 36 of the WW Wolf NGG bullets and he loaded them with 28 SR4759 in his Miroku/Badger 45-90. He shot them Wednesday, 16 Feb, 2011. He pushed a patch through after each shot and the patch had a LOT of little lead longer-than-wide strips. I advised him to not push the patch through, which he could do for 3 shots until the guilt over came him. 18 of his shots went into ~2" at 100 yards. There was no lead stuck in the barrel. I think each shot pushed the lead strips out of the barrel.
I consider a barrel leaded when the accuracy goes south. When that happens the lead is stuck in the barrel and is hard to get out.
This didn't do that.
I've never seen lead like this before, where a patch pushes out a lot of little lead strips after each shot.   
joe b.
  
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Re: Antimony
Reply #28 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:43am
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I have been having very good luck with Lyman Super Moly lube in several guns, and wanted to try it in a 45-70. Not wanting to try to pan-lube with it, I bought a .457" Lyman sizing die and had it honed out to .460". The 457193 WW and lead bullet only kissed the die here and there, and the bottom groove only was lubed. A set of 25 of these were loaded with Rem. 2 1/2 primers and 24/SR4759, and shot on Wednesday, March 30, 2011.
There was unburned powder in the bore every time I looked.
There was no leading.
The second patch came out clean.
My normal loads of SR4759 for this gun/bullet-Darr-lubed leave no unburned powder in the barrel. The presence of unburned powder with the moly lube suggests that pressure is lower.   

Summary
At least I, in my guns, can shoot plain-based antimony-containing bullets at lower = <1500fps velocities without leading. Bullets that are too small will lead. 
I suggest that the myth of antimony=leading has to do with breech-seating, where groove diameter/hardness/breech-seating- force/required together operate toward a tendency to too-small bullets.
I would add here that the alleged mathematical relationship between pressure, BHN of the bullet and accuracy; where "obturation" is often mentioned, is untrue.    
joe b.
  
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Re: Antimony
Reply #29 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 2:02pm
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joe b,
I shot my 45/70 for years BSed with 2% tin added to my WW, using Darr lube and never got leading. My loads went from 10 gr Unique (974 fps) to 15 gr 296 under 70 gr FG (approx 1470 fps). I've never shot fixed in that gun. Bullets were as cast NEI 430 gr spitzer with a base band of .460 (used to be a GC).

I got mediocre accuracy with 24-28 gr 4759 and alway unburned powder, my best load was a duplex smokeless load but, it even left some unburned powder. The Unique load was cleanest burning but #2 in accuracy.

Also, I've always loved the shine that just a little tin gives to lead.

Frank
  

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