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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine (Read 19589 times)
Duett
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #15 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:58pm
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Interesting information about rimfire ammo! 

I just bought a Friedrich Langenhan (=think Haenel kk) made 22lr rifle and I love it!

This may be old news to many of you but please take a look at Targetshooter website, lots of interesting reading about rimfires (not singleshots though)

Eley testing page 44: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Ammo selection part one page 43: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Ammo selection part two page 40: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #16 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 5:34pm
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I downloaded that magazine and will read it later on today.  thanks for posting the link


"It was my experience and that of several shooters I know, that Wolf Match Target was the better performer, at least in my Martini."

one of the major problems with this whole rimfire thing is that each individual gun seems to be different and with such small cases/powder charges/ bullets etc etc  even the tiniest variables become critical. 
As a result one gun may respond well or better to one specific mfg/brand/lot, and another gun that to all our ability to measure is identical will do better with something else.
We can say that one brand lot will outperform another but that is only relative to performance either in one specific gun or as a statistical average of several test guns------which may or may not relate to your specific guns.

We assume that 22rf ammo built to more consistent specs--tighter QC tolerances- (more $$$)--should perform better than ammo built to lesser QC specs.  However its how it performs in YOUR gun that counts.  and i can almost gurantee that once you find a batch that your gun likes---they'll discontinue it Embarrassed
  

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bnice
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #17 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 6:59pm
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SK and Lapua are owned by the same group. Wolf is re-branded SK. I am not claiming to be a expert on this but have bought alot of 22 ammo both for my self, and my junior club. It all depends on the lot! When the AMU buys ammo they send 10 guns and test many lots till they narrow it down to what shoots best across those 10 guns they buy. I have had 10x that sucked and wolf target that shot great. Chances are you are going to have a higher % of good ammo in those high $ brands, but no certaintee. I once tried 8 lots of eley match, 5-10x, 2 fiocchi 320sm, 3 lapua master in a machine rest, indoor 50 yd. Had 1 lot of 10x, 4 eley match, both fiocchi, and 2 lapua shot well all very comparable. If you find a good lot buy buy buy
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #18 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 7:58pm
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How does a company manufacture the different grades of .22 ammo?  Is the "best" made on better or newer machines??  Is it different powders??  Different lead??  Bullet shape??  Are the bullets graded??  Lube??  Do they pull batches along the assembly line and test them and find where some do better in a long run and grade them that way??  I was just wondering why a $15 box of ammo supposedly does better than a $3 box.  A curious mind was just wondering??
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #19 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 8:38pm
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I have been told-------that some of Ely's machines, perhaps ones with less time since last rebuild, produce more consistent ammo and that some shooters or groups request specific lots made on specific machines.
Other companies may do something similar.   maybe by running at a slower production speed the can tighten the QC, but the slower production mandates a higher cost------or maybe its just all smoke and mirrors

they must all run some sort of ongoing testing,  firing a box out of every 5000 or some such number for comparative evaluation


I know when I shot the various Wolf ammo the difference between the 3 grades pretty much seems to be the number of "fliers" per box----directly proportional to the cost. less expensive has more highs and lows.  The non-flier shots of all three all seem to group about the same.  So I'd guess that the high priced spread is held to tighter specs, with variables in case dimensions, primer charge weight,  lead size/weight, lube quality and weight/amount
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2010 at 8:44pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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boats
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #20 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 9:00pm
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Guys

I don't subscribe to the "gun likes" theory.  Top teams furnish the same ammo to all members.  Imagine packing the US Olympic team and trying to sort out what each team member thinks his gun likes.

It's a gun writers often repeated myth supported by inadequate testing.  Good is good and if it won't shoot look for a gun or operator problem.  We get Silhouette competitors all the time that claim some cheap stuff is what there rifle "likes" never see one win a match with it.

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bnice
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #21 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 10:24pm
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I was told that is why the AMU looks for lots that perform well in multiple guns. not a fluke in a certain gun and that instance.
  
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Fred Boulton
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #22 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 5:16am
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Bert Brookes, who looked after the Eley test range died last year. Bert's working day largely consisted of meeting top shooters from all over the world--with their rifles---and testing batches of Tenex. When a production batch was found that ideally suited a particular rifle, the shooter would reserve that batch. If the individual could not take the whole batch with him, then Eley would store it, allowing the shooter to purchase the best ammo for his rifle until the batch came to an end and the visit to Birminham had to be repeated.
Bert is gone, but this process still happens. Ammo is selected for the individual--not normally for teams.
Fred
  
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #23 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 7:00am
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I suppose you could take a top shooters rifle to Eley, Indoor machine rest and come to some conclusion that one lot of ammo is better than others.  I don't think it happens often. I did not hear the US Olympic team all flew to England to test rifles.  No doubt the team tested ammo before selecting a brand, and signed a sponsorship deal. Just like a golfer picking golf balls, money secures use of the brand.

Guy at our local range outdoors with his pet rimfire with 20 boxes of wal mart ammo looking for the "holy grail". 3 dollars a box cloverleaf groups because the rifle "liked" the ammo.  That 3 shot group was the result of random shots falling in line one time.

Guys it's a myth

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ledball
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #24 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 7:46am
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boats;
           I think you have exposed another gun "myth"--I have several 22Rf rifles and they all like the high dollar ammo--I don't think I would keep a rifle that wouldn't shoot Eley 10X. There are good and bad "lots" of all RF ammo, but the good stuff always wins. I've never seen a match of any importance won with Rem "thunderbolts" or Win "wildcats"--I also think this same "myth" is used when talking about our CF rifles.    ledball
  
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #25 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 8:00am
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Boats
I'vs shot a lot of bulk walmart when you could get it. Rifle is an almost new Mkll Martini with a 3200 Redfield on top. In local club matches I smoked a lot of 40x and anschutez shooting expensive stuff. You are correct about flyers. I measured rim thickness and weight on everything I shot for score and used the seperated stuf for fouling and lube. I usualy got about ten out of a brick either to heavy or rim to thick that shot outside of group. I have an unopened brick of Tenex for a special ocasion because a buddy talked me into it because he thought expensive is better. I also have a Ruger Mk1 target that likes Remington target. only because it is standard velocity. 
    Try measuring and weighing and come your own conclusions what is quality amunition. see if what you seperate stays in your groups.
Tom
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #26 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 10:08am
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Looking at Ely, as an example, in my Midway catalog, Ten X is $19.99, Match is $12.79, Team is $10.99, Club $7.39, and Sport $3.19.  That is a difference of $16 from top to bottom.  Is it then due to the cost of possibly being produced on machines with tighter tolerances and then hand measuring and sorting?  I would think that most of it would have to be labor induced somehow.  Bob
  
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #27 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 11:44am
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Fred just relaying what my friend who went to Ely for the AMU told me. They want an ammo that will shoot well across any gun so they test lots against multiple guns. Yes individuals do the same for their rifles.
  
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #28 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:34pm
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At the range yesterday, a shooter had a Rem 540 target rifle that had not been shot for some years.  He was trying to target it at 100 yards with Winchester Wildcat and some Aguila stuff, & complaining mightily that the rifle would not shoot (or maybe him).  I gave him a box of Wolf Match Extra. After a few shots to get the fouling smooth, the rifle started shooting cloverleaf groups.  The shooter was ecstatic.  I neglected to give him a box of Eley Club Extra.

Matching ammo lots to rifles and evaluating barrels from a machine rest is not new.  If you read Crossman's "Smallbore Rifle Shooting" (1927) or Landis' "22 Caliber Rifle Shooting" (1932), both refer to trips to the ammunition company indoor test ranges to check on which lots to buy.  Those old-timers went to Winchester or Remington.  Apparently both had setups similar to that described for Eley, as did the old United States Cartridge Company.  Do our present US companies offer such services?

Boelter's book discusses the manufacture & quality control processes.  The high $ stuff is made on machinery with tighter tolerances, from strips of brass meeting more rigid standards, sometimes with a different powder (cites Tenex), and is subject to many more types of inspections.  As you move incrementally from the $20 per box stuff down to the $4 or $3 box stuff, you are either getting the ammo that did not quite pass the super high standards ($10 per box) or the stuff that is poured out with close to zero effort at QC.

Most of the vendors of high-end target ammo will work with shooters to supply specific lots of ammo for trial or large quantity sales.
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:40pm by waterman »  
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Re: Rimfire ammo article in new "Rifle"magazine
Reply #29 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 2:54pm
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Thought I would stir you guys up with that one. I don't doubt for a minute shooters believe one lot of ammo is better than another. When I was in the Reserve and shot on a pick up service rifle team we believed different lots of issue ammo were better than others.  Believed it deeply too.

Now with age and experience behind me I know those M1's were so inaccurate that there was no way to tell one lot of ammo from another. It was hidden in the variables.   That's the rimfire problem, if you could isolate the variables it may be possible to figure out if one is better than another.  And if a person believes in something it often comes true.  You just don't say anything about it when it does not come true.

I do say cheap stuff is more likely to have flyers and some times gets a good group.  Just not often a long run large shot number group.  matches I shoot are either 40 or 100 shots and can't afford the flyers.

Have not made up my mind on what to shoot this season. Whatever I pick will tell you all it's wonderfull stuff and never say a word about bad performance.

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