here's the 2nd

Stebbinsgr it took well over thirty years to better C.W. Roland's record of which was shot over a three day period in the best of conditions utilizing a Pope style machine rest with no wind, no mirage, no pressure and no time constraints.

Who really had the advantage over today's technology?

Come on guys lets give Jim Borton the credit he deserves for being the first person to accomplish it some thirty years later in real time conditions and without the assistance of a machine rest!

I have never seen an account in writing of how C.W. Rowland fired the group on May 16, 1901.  I have heard also he did it in in a mine shaft.

The only thing I do know is that a Pope style machine rest was probably used.  That is because C.W. wrote machine rest on the target.

I have heard that C.W. made a comment about Harry's barrels being tempermental and that he thought Schoyen's barrels were better.  When Harry heard that he supposedly refused to ever make another barrel for C.W.

If you look at the picture of C.W. Rowland's .32 40 you see that it is an offhand rifle.

When Jim fired his record was it also a .32 40 or some newer rifle such as a De Haas-Miller in a different caliber?  Is it an offhand rifle or is it a rifle specifically designed for bench rest shooting? I would expect that a newer rifle with the benefit of today's technology would be able to outshoot one from over 100 years ago.

If C.W. took three days to get the record grouping consider this that the technology available then and what we have today are NOT the same.

But, do not get me wrong, Jim Borton has beaten the record.  I just think we are trying to argue apples and oranges.  The conditions are different and so is the equipment and they were fired 100 years apart.

I also understand that C.W. muzzle loaded all ten shots and was probably firing a duplex load of smokeless and black powder using a Pope Duplex powder measure.  

Stebbinsgr
The source of animosity between Pope and Rowland was when in a letter that appeared in the American Rifleman Rowland was quoted as saying that he saw no difference in the grouping ability of Pope’s rifles over George Schoyen’s. He said that one day he would make a small group with his Pope and another day make an equally small group with his Schoyen. Pope, never being shy at blowing his own horn was insulted by the comment and never corresponded with Rowland again. After his death, when the shop was cleaned out there was a pile of unopened letters from Rowland. It was after the Rowland spat that Kelly became Pope’s fair-haired boy. 
  As to the Borton – Reynolds debate both all of the groups that we are talking about were fired on score targets. By ASSRA rules group size is only used to break a tie.  To be fair Jim Borton small group target was scored a 250 with a size of  .725”. Dale Reynolds group measured .655” but it was judged that 2 shots leaked out of the 25 ring giving Dale a score of 248 for the target.  No one to date has bested Roland’s ten shot group target in a group match. Both Jim and Dale’s targets while both being notable and exceptional shooting are not technically records. 
  Dale’s target was shot with the following equipment. Action: WNY action of Dale’s own manufacture. Barrel: Pac-Nor 5 groove .308 barrel in a 1:10” twist. The bullet is a 3 groove Borton-Darr seated .60 ahead of the case. The chambering is a 32-30 Remington. The powder was H108 a Federal 205 M primer was used.

Hope some of you guys realize how confusing this is for a new guy.
But I think I'm beginning to understand.  Rowland may have shot a very nice group,  but with no rules, witnesses, time limits, and off a machine etc. should it really be considered a record. Being that it was not shot in any event, match, or association shoot I don't think his group would be considered by any association as a record, except maybe his own personal best record. 

It's not much different than what I do in my back yard. Once in awhile I amaze myself. But anyone that shoots hundreds of groups like Rowland and others is bound to have more than a few exceptional ones now and then.

40 Rod said :
"No one to date has bested Roland’s ten shot group target in a group match. Both Jim and Dale’s targets while both being notable and exceptional shooting are not technically records"   

And that's because they were fired in the wrong match and on the wrong target, right ?. 

So I'm back to the same question of who holds the official ASSRA group record, fired in a group match, under match conditions, on an official ASSRA group target ?. I'm just curious as to who holds it, what was used to shoot it, and what was the size of the group.

It seems that the score record is 250-10-C, shot many times by more than one member, but I guess Jim Borton holds it because his group size was smaller than others that have shot the same score, being that the record is known for the score event what is the record for the group event.
  S T

In a word, YES!    ASSRA keeps all kinds of records now.

The Rowland group, while shot under somewhat informal circumstances, was widely accepted as the "Holy Grail" of benchrest groups.  Others may have made as good groups under what could be considered equal conditions, but it had the mystique, so it was the one that modern single shot shooters, under the auspices of the ASSRA, have sought to beat under match conditions.  Is the whole process logical?  No, but then again, what is logical about a lot of the stuff we do?   

Jim's group that J Louis referred to meets all the criteria that Rowland's did and probably more, but the elusive goal was to beat his non-match fired group under match conditions at an ASSRA event, so there you go.  We can't belittle Jim's or Dale's groups, they both "be little" enough on their own, and richly deserve the attention they have garnered in rifle shooting lore.  Probably at the end of this century, ray gun shooters of the day will talk about the wonderful shooting of those lead bullet shooters in that amazing decade of the two thousand oughts when the small group quest was hotly pursued.  The stuff of legend, and rightly so!

the Green Frog
(Still trying to get 10 in the same ring!!)

Great, 
That's the way it should be, the Rowland group may have been informal and not official by any rules but it gave guys something to shoot for.

  Same for the current records, they give others something to shoot for.
Are the current records posted any where on the web site, if not,  are they some how available to members / non-members so that they can gauge there shooting skill with the best there is.
  S T

"There is a whole lot more involved in shooting alloyed cast lead bullets accuratly than the choice of ones equipment believe me."

At the level where Jim and Dale, and a couple more guys play, it's the "whole lot more" that makes the difference. 
There are maybe half a dozen guys with pretty much equivalent equipment for ASSRA bench-rest shooting at E.G..  I am pretty firmly convinced that the Dale and Jim kind of guys could switch benches and equipment and after a little familiarization practice their scores (or group sizes) would be about the same.
  I think the biggest difference between the top three or four contenders and the next level is their experience and skill at "reading conditions"; and luck of course.   
But then, as I've seen in a signiture line either here or on ony of my archery forums,  "the more I practice, the luckier I get"