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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best Rest Position? (Read 24080 times)
Fritz
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #15 - Nov 30th, 2009 at 2:27pm
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I'd like to see how that is set up too--Fritz
  
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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #16 - Nov 30th, 2009 at 11:31pm
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Sorry guys, my mistake, I guess.  Looking at the rules that Joe posted it says that : 

"An anti-cant device (bob-sled) similar to the Pope style muzzle rest or the one described in Mann’s book is permitted"

I've never seen an original one and when Joe said that most were screwed to the bottom of the barrel I assumed that's what was required to be "similar" to a Pope style muzzle rest.
S T
  
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JLouis
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #17 - Nov 30th, 2009 at 11:55pm
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Set_Trigger

I have done extensive testing utilizing a Bob Sled in various positions on the barrel for my own benefit and I don't claim to be an expert in this subject by any means.

It has been my personnel experience with both my 32-40 & 33-47 of which have different barrel lengths and weights is they both tend to shoot their very best with what is termed recoil balance.

To achieve recoil balance one would strive to have the same amount of weigth bearing on the rear bag under the butt stock as you would have under the barrel resting on the front rest.

I have found if you have more weight resting on the rear of the bag the muzzle has a tendency to lift off of the front rest creating undesired vertical

I have also found if you have more weight on the front rest the rear of the stock has a tendency to lift off of the rear rest creating undesired vertical.

I have also found that when you achieve true recoil balance the rifle will recoil in a straight line rearward eliminating the undesired vertical 

To achieve true recoil balance it might require one to have just a tad more weight bearing on the front rest or vice versa having just a tad more weight bearing on the rear bag.

I hope this helps.
J.Louis



  

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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #18 - Dec 1st, 2009 at 1:22pm
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Thanks J. Louis,
That will be something else for me to try next Spring.
  S T
  
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oldbluelight
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #19 - Dec 1st, 2009 at 7:11pm
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This is for Set Trigger,
"Have you noticed just where or how many inches back from the muzzle you are resting your gun. Like I've said in one of my post, most that I've seen pictures of seem to be about 6 to 8 inches back from the muzzle. I'm sure this will vary with each gun but just curious. "

Yes it does vary from rifle to rifle. What most shooters strive for is placement on the barrel node. This is the portion of the barrel that doesn't move in response to the vibrations that travel up and down the barrel on ignition. There are several methods used to determine this spot. One is to coat the upper flat of the barrel with baby powder and fire the rifle from a forearm rest. Powder covering the node will be relatively undisturbed. The second method  is audible. Holding or suspending the rifle from the butt stock you place your ear next to the receiver and tap the barrel with a stick or dowel down its length from the fore end to the muzzle. When you tap the node you will notice no significant sound is produced. The third method is to measure from the fore end to the muzzle and come back 1/4 of that distance from the muzzle. On most rifles with 30 to32 inch barrels that places the node in the range of measurement you've observed.
Personally I prefer the 'beat 'em with a stick' method. If carried out at the range someone is bound to inquire just what you're doing. You explain, "I've been very unsatisfied with this rifle's performance and I'm disciplining it in hopes of improving its ability to group." This assures that you will remain undisturbed by pestering questions and have all your requests for cease fires instantly honored. It also helps to preserve the mystique associated with fanatical devotion to antiquated firearms.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #20 - Dec 1st, 2009 at 9:02pm
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I took  couple pictures today of the rest at the EG clubhouse.  it has a plaque on it stating it is a copy of Harry Pope's machine rest as made by Rodney Storey and donated by him to the club.   I'll try to get them transferred to the laptop and cropped and posted tomorrow night.   got a bunch of paper work to do tonight

It is basically plank about a yard long with another one 6 or 8 inches long butted to it extending down at a right angle.  The main plank has a row of hole drilled down the center for about half of its length with a movable peg for the holes.  on the downward extension is a brass fitting with an adjustable yoke.
   the "sled" has a "v" notch in its base.  it would be clamped to the barrel and the "v" slid against the peg providing a consistent location at that end.  somehow the action end would be fitted or rested in the yoke which is adjustable for elevation and horizontal movement.  I'm assuming the gun would 'free" recoil and then be returned to battery on the yoke and locator peg.
It'll make a LOT more sense with the pictures.
  

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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #21 - Dec 1st, 2009 at 10:08pm
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Thanks a bunch for the tips oldbluelight, 
Cant wait to get to the range to give my 32-40 a spankin. There sure seems to be a lot of testing that goes into getting a Schutzen Rifle to shoot, but it's shooting and I like to shoot so it's a good thing. 

Between you, westerner, stebbinsgr, J. Louis, DWS8130, and a whole bunch of other guys I should be an "expert" by Spring. 
  Smiley
  S T
  
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stebbinsgr
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #22 - Dec 2nd, 2009 at 6:32am
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This is a picture of the Pope Machine Rest from Ray Smith's book.  This is primarily supposed to be used for adjusting your sights (zeroing).

It looks like the forestock is removed and the barrel is clamped to the rest at the muzzle and close to the receiver.

This is NOT for use in competition of course.  This is probably the type of rest used by C.W. Rowland to shoot his 9/16" by 1/2" group from a .32 40 on May 16, 1901. 

Rowland's Stevens-Pope Ballard .32 40 sold at auction this year for $57,500.

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« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2009 at 6:46am by »  
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Jubilado
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #23 - Dec 2nd, 2009 at 11:06am
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I wonder how many in present day Boulder know or care about that bit of history?

Of course, look at what the original Creedmoor range has become.

Sad.

Paul, CU '69
  
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JLouis
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #24 - Dec 2nd, 2009 at 11:15pm
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For those of you who do not know our own Jim Borton ( originator of this web site ) has bettered C.W. Roland's group at least twice that I know of. Once at my home range in Ca. on Oct. 11, 2004 ( Which Just Happened To Be Columbus Day ) and was an unofficial record because it was not shot in a official match and again at Etna Green during an official match. My friend Jim also has more 250,s shot at 200 yds than anyone I have had the pleasure to hang out with. Not to take anything away from C.W. Roland's remarkable accomplishments I think it would only be appropriate to start recognizeing Jim Borton's  accomplishments under match conditions and Replace C.W. Roland's honored name with Jim Borton's when you talk about the utlimate group shot in our sport to date.

If you want to reach that level of shooting I would address your questions directly to Jim and not to try and second guess his advise and you will be one up on the rest of the serious group.

J.Louis
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #25 - Dec 2nd, 2009 at 11:25pm
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I almost don't want to ask this question but I just gots to know, who now holds the record and what is it.
  S T
  
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stebbinsgr
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #26 - Dec 3rd, 2009 at 7:37am
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C. W. Rowland's accomplishments were definitely remarkable for 1901.  I agree that Jim has definitely busted that record and I also believe Dr. Hudson's offhand record has been beaten recently also.

When you look at the technology that is available today and what they had to work with in 1901 to 1903.  They worked miracles with the equipment they had.

Today we have chronographs, more consistent powder materials and better technology for rifling barrels.  We have in all cases matched and usually surpassed the old records.  But, we still need to give some credit to those pioneers that blazed the trail.

My hat's off to the old timers and the present day heroes of the sport.  They all have their place in the sun.
  
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KAF
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #27 - Dec 3rd, 2009 at 8:02am
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Dale Reynolds of the Western NY Schuetzen Society holds the ASSRA 10 shot group record, on a score target. Not sure there is a recorded record for this in ASSRA competition.
The 10 shots measured:  .655" at 200 yds.
The group was shot at Beeson Range, during a official match.  I believe it was a Schoyen match target, a #5 target is what is used for that match.
  
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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #28 - Dec 3rd, 2009 at 2:33pm
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WOW, .655 at 200 yds.
That's one very fine 10 shot group. I just noticed that Rowland's group is marked as shot off a machine rest. I didn't know that machine rest records were kept back then. Was Dale Reynolds group shot the same way or was it shot off bags, if shot off bags I would say it's a GREAT group shot by a GREAT shooter.

KAF,
You say that the group was shot at Beeson Range, during a official match and that Dale Reynolds holds the ASSRA 10 shot group record, on a score target ?. But I don't quite understand what you mean when you say that your "not sure there is a recorded record for this in ASSRA competition",  if it was shot in an official match why wouldn't it be an official  recorded record. 

I'm not sure what a # 5 Target is but no matter what target it was shot on a .655 10 shot group is a .655 group, are you saying that because it was not fired on a official bench rest target it's not an "official record" ?. If so I understand, rules are rules, and if it has to be shot on a BR target that's the rules, then just for the record book what is the real official bench rest record, that has been shot in a Bench rest match on a bench rest target. 
  S T
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #29 - Dec 3rd, 2009 at 8:49pm
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here are 4 pictures I took of the recreation of the Pope machine rest that Rodney Storey built and donated.  they'll be one each in 4 posts, no captions they are pretty self explanatory
  

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