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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best Rest Position? (Read 24048 times)
Jubilado
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Best Rest Position?
Nov 29th, 2009 at 10:02am
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When the weather gets better (next year?) I plan to test this myself, but meanwhile I'd be interested in what others have found about resting vintage style single shot rifles on a front rest.

I know that standard practice with bolt action rifles, including benchrest rifles, is to rest the forearm on the front rest, usually on a padded bag.  Placing the barrel on the rest is considered a major "no-no".  Dedicated modern benchrest rifles have flat bottomed straight stocks designed to ride the bags straight back.

Yet in various forms of single shot shooting the barrel is placed on a rest, on cross sticks,  and sometimes a barrel rest or sled is fastened to the barrel for stability.

In terms of pure accuracy, has any method been definitively established as the best practice?  Or is it an empirical question with each rifle being a law unto itself? Does it matter whether it is a .22 or other mild caliber, or something with more recoil?

Paul
  
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stebbinsgr
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #1 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 10:59am
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Actually with vintage octagonal and round barrel rifles a muzzle clamp and front rest is actually better.  Between 1900 and the start of WW I there were two forms of competition.  Offhand of course and what was termed muzzle rest (what we now call bench rest).

But with the longer action rifles such as the Ballard (in the case of my rifle a Stevens-Pope Ballard) an octagonal clamp is used in a sliding fixture on the front rest.  Because the entire rifle will actually flex if pressure is applied in the vicinity of the action.  

Trying to support this type of rifle by only its forearm (or just in front of the forearm) would lead to muzzle whip and an erratic change in point of impact.  You will see greater accuracy at 200 yards with a muzzle clamp.  This is not to say you cannot rest the barrel on a sandbag.  But, if you quest is for the greatest accuracy then a barrel clamp is what you want to use.  Sometimes called a "bobsled."  

If you have access to Randy Wright's "Loading and Shooting Traditional Schuetzen Rifles - A Beginner's Guide" refer to pages 80 -89.  Also refer to Dell & Schwartz "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle (1999)" chapter 12B page 244.

I do not have the muzzle rest my Grandfather used with his rifle because it was sold to a friend of his in the 1960's.  

Refer to ASSRA Rule Book:

Section 2.91 Sandbags and Rests
 
A sandbag or shaped rear rest sand filled bag made of leather or canvas may be used under the toe of the buttstock. No other device or support is permitted for the toe of the rifle. V-blocks or rests, guides, ways, or any such devices which may aid in alignment and realignment of the rifle, are prohibited. An anti-cant device (bob-sled) similar to the Pope style muzzle rest or the one described in Mann’s book is permitted. Also a spirit level or sight attached to the barrel is permitted. A simple stop may be attached to the front rest as an aid in realigning the rifle for the next shot.
« Last Edit: Nov 29th, 2009 at 11:04am by »  
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Jubilado
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #2 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 11:14am
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Wow, that is about the most authoritative answer I have ever gotten to a shooting question I posted on the internet.  Thanks!


I understand the concept of the "bobsled", in fact I made one just working blind and not having much in the way of background.

A couple of follow up questions, if I may.

Do I understand that the sled and the surface it rests on are hard, that is, there is no padding as with a conventional bag rest?

Does the sled move freely forward and backward, as in ways?  Is it important that lateral movement be limited?

Is it important to position the sled at an optimal point or "sweet spot" on the barrel?

Still learning.

Thanks again.

Paul
  
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oldbluelight
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #3 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 11:19am
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In terms of pure accuracy, has any method been definitively established as the best practice?

To some extent position on the rest is dictated by what you are doing with the rifle. Many shooters using cross sticks, LRBPC etc., believe that placing the barrel on the sticks gives them the best control for aiming. A major consideration in this method on stick or with a bench rest is the determination of the vibrational node closest to the muzzle. Resting on this point or attaching a sled there is critical according to most people. My own personal experience has not clearly established one method as superior to the other with the BPCR rifles I shoot most frequently.

 Or is it an empirical question with each rifle being a law unto itself?

Yep, more or less try it and find out. I suspect that the two piece stock common to most single shot rifles is a factor in this and that is why it's not common practice with 'normal' benchrest shooting.

Does it matter whether it is a .22 or other mild caliber, or something with more recoil?

I don't know how important barrel weight is in this equation but I suspect that the lightest contours would not react well to the techniques. The heavy slow bullets used in a great many single shots produce quite a bit of torque and the  sled minimizes or eliminates it.

While I was writng this stebbinsgr posted so I guess a lot of this is redundant.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #4 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:17pm
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There are a LOT of interacting variables in bench shooting, as there are in any form of precision shooting. Barrel/rest position is just one of them.  IF all your other variables are properly accounted for you might find that adjusting the barrel or forend position on the rest helps in the tuning process.
 
Walking the line at Etna Green or other shoots you will see a wide variety of techniques in use.  Most use flat forends on specially stocked rifles used specifically for bench competition.  Usually their barrels are short stiff and free floated following state of the art benchrest methods applied to single shot actions.  These are the guys winning group matches with record-breaking one-hole groups. The top guys have it down to a very fine art to the point where (at least to my perception) the difference between 1st and 2nd (or 4th) is condition management skill and plain old luck.
 
Guys who are working with more "traditional" rifles, or are sighting in their off-hand guns, tend to develop a placement that works best with their rifle and load; resting on barrel or forend as suits them.  The stocks of the offhand rifles make bench shooting a challenge at best and as they try to eliminate as much variable as possible, searching out vibration nodes may be a ways down the list.

Historically speaking  Using a clamp-on "sled" was a pre-cursor to more modern forms of bench-rests.  It allowed one to us  a more solid rest for load development and sight calibration, and then remove it for the more usual off-hand competition. they were more or less a test tool, though they might be eft n the rifle to adjust weight and balance for competition.  I don't know when actual matches were started for benchrest single shot guys but I suspect it is a modern innovation by the ASSRA founders.

Sleds WERE used in competition by the guys shooting the heavy weight "slug guns" of the era and earlier; the ancestor of our modern bench rest shooting
  

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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #5 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 3:45pm
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Very interesting Info.
I also will be testing the effects of a front barrel rest next year when the weather gets nice. Most all of my testing will be with a Ruger # 1 in 22 LR being I have one of known accuracy when shooting off the forend.

Will also try it on my 32-40 as I haven't gotten very good accuracy with it shooting off the forend but I'm sure it's a lead bullet problem because it shoots jacked bullets great, but if it shoots better off a barrel rest then I'll know it helped. 

I think a lot of the accuracy problems is because most traditional Schutzen rifles have two piece stocks,  whereas most modern bolt rifles have a one piece stock and a better way of attaching the stock to the barreled action.

I have been noticing that most barrel rest are attached between 6 and 8 inches from the muzzle, I'm wondering if these barrel rest are acting more like a barrel tuner and moving it up and down the barrel I'm sure is having an affect on the accuracy. 

It will be interesting to see just how much movement it takes to affect or improve accuracy. My understanding is that in ASSRA matches barrel tuners are NOT allowed but these muzzle rest are, even thought they can act and be used like a barrel tuner ?,  or is there a rule that a barrel rest has to be a certain distance from the muzzle, that of course would probably prevent them from being used as a barrel tuner.
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westerner
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #6 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 6:36pm
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Many, maybe most, of the old barrel rests were fastened to the bottom of the barrel with a screw rather than clamped. 

We dont need more rules, we need less rules.  Wink


                           Joe. 

           
  

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jeffer1942
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #7 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 8:32pm
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Joe:

I have found that the best rests usually involve at least 8 hours of interrupted sleep!!!

Jeff
  
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #8 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 8:38pm
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Agreed!    Wink

         Joe. Smiley
  

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JLouis
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #9 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 9:36pm
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I use a bob sled but I must say some of my best shooting has come from resting the barrel on a 6 inch x 6 inch pillow bag filled with heavy sand and yet keeping it as soft as possible The only down side of using a pillow bag is you have to master control over torque and recoil. Out my way if you drop a point you won't make it into the top three so I currently use what gives me the best consistency and not necessarily what gives me the best groups if that makes since.
  

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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #10 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 11:01pm
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Ok Joe, no more rules.

So if most all were like you said,  "fastened to the bottom of the barrel with a screw rather than clamped"

And the rules say that :
"An anti-cant device ( bob-sled ) similar to the Pope style muzzle rest or the one described in Mann’s book is permitted",  and they have to be attached with a screw like the originals, then I guess it would not be easy to slide them up and down the barrel like a adjustable tuner.

To bad they are not allowed to be clamped, then it would be easy to slide them up and down the barrel like a modern day tuner. 
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Set_Trigger
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #11 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 11:09pm
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Hi J Louis,
Have you noticed just where or how many inches back from the muzzle you are resting your gun. Like I've said in one of my post, most that I've seen pictures of seem to be about 6 to 8 inches back from the muzzle. I'm sure this will vary with each gun but just curious. 
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #12 - Nov 29th, 2009 at 11:58pm
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ST, I looked the rule up too. I dont see where it says the rest cannot be clamped or that it has to be attached with a screw.

Here it is.


Section 2.91 Sandbags and Rests

 

A sandbag or shaped rear rest sand filled bag made of leather or canvas may be used under the toe of the buttstock. No other device or support is permitted for the toe of the rifle. V-blocks or rests, guides, ways, or any such devices which may aid in alignment and realignment of the rifle, are prohibited. An anti-cant device (bob-sled) similar to the Pope style muzzle rest or the one described in Mann’s book is permitted. Also a spirit level or sight attached to the barrel is permitted. A simple stop may be attached to the front rest as an aid in realigning the rifle for the next shot. This may be contacted by the muzzle rest or the forearm at the discretion of the shooter if used at all. The front rest assembly and rear bag may not be connected mechanically or tied together. The shooting bench top surface is the only common connection between the two that will be allowed.


My comment was based on my observations of old target rifles and nothing else. I agree, less rules.   Wink


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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #13 - Nov 30th, 2009 at 11:26am
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One problem I find with the muzzle rest, ( bobsled ) is finding a bench long enough.  At the range in Poulsbo I would have to make some kind of extension to clamp to the front of the bench to set my rest on. Seems most benches are made for bolt guns and repeaters and other such rifraf.

Come to think of it I dont know of any range with benches long enough. I remember watching Ron Long shoot a very heavy 38/55 Ballard with a barrel rest at the range at Cody Wyoming. The buttstock extended quite a way past the end of the bench. Ron didnt look very comfortable shooting it. 

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Best Rest Position?
Reply #14 - Nov 30th, 2009 at 11:44am
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we have a replica of one used by pope or mann or somebody in the clubhouse at EG.   If I get there in the next few days I'll try pt get a picture of it and post what it looks like.  As I recall it is  plank with the sled/muzzle clamp on one end and some sort of attachment at the other.   I think the whole schlemozzle clamped to a bench or saw horses or something similar
  

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