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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) When did it become Lyman-Ideal? (Read 22340 times)
RJM
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When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Sep 16th, 2009 at 8:12am
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I recently found an Ideal mold for the 165 gr 32-40 bullet that is marked Ideal Mfg, New Haven CT, which sparks my question. When did Lyman & Ideal merge?

From were I live I can hike (a long one) down to the old Lyman factory, but I have no idea where in New Haven, Ideal Mfg was located. Anyone know? I see this stuff all the time, but never thought to ask these question!

Regards, Ron
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #1 - Sep 16th, 2009 at 9:21pm
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John Barlow sold his reloading tool business, the Ideal Manufacturing Company, to the Marlin Firearms Company in 1910.  In the press of WWI contracts, Marlin sold Ideal to Phineas Talcott in 1915.  Talcott held onto the company for ten years or so without doing much with it and finally the Lyman Gun Sight Company bought Ideal from Talcott in 1925.  The switchover was announced in the Ideal Handbook #27 of that year.

The name "Ideal" persisted on the moulds, loading tools, handbooks and advertisements until the early 1960's.  After that, "Lyman" was the name on the books, moulds and tools, as well as the gun sights.

I can't help with the location. Back then, nobody needed a street address to get in touch with any company.  You might check some of the old city directories if you are in the area.
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #2 - Sep 16th, 2009 at 11:38pm
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The name "Ideal" persisted on the moulds, loading tools, handbooks and advertisements until the early 1960's.  After that, "Lyman" was the name on the books, moulds and tools, as well as the gun sights.

And it's my understanding that when Lyman dropped the 'Ideal' name on their molds, they had a mass sale of everything in the warehouse that was unprofitable in the Ideal mold lines.  They even chucked the Ideal diagrams for these molds.  Needless to say, mold collectors had a field day acquiring Ideal molds.

As an example, I started a group buy for the re-make of the Ideal 375166 mold.  When Lyman was contacted they didn't even have the diagram for the mold.  I had to recreate the diagram from a couple of pictures of the mold because to-date, I heard there are only 2 collectors that have the mold. Also, one went for sale on eBay a few months back and the price was close to $400.  Bill Loos, one of the prominent mold collectors in Rochester, even didn't have the mold or the diagram for the 375166.

Here's why I wanted this old mold ...
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RJM
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #3 - Sep 17th, 2009 at 6:38pm
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Guys,
Thanks for the info. I had guessed that the merger was closer to 1900 that that. I'll see if I can't find out more from local sources.
Regards, Ron
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #4 - Sep 18th, 2009 at 2:53am
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Lyman had their name on the moulds until around 1977 or so, when the family sold the company to something called the Leisure Group.  This was the outfit that cut everything out of the mould catalogue that wasn't paying whatever the bean counters said was a viable return-on-investment.  It occurred just a couple years before the underground interest in old guns and calibers began to swell and BPCR Silhouette, Cowboy Action and other disciplines started up.  In retrospect, that inventory reduction was a business move akin to Coca-Cola's going to New Coke, only, alas, irreversible.
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #5 - Sep 19th, 2009 at 12:12am
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John Barlow was born in England in 1846, and immigrated to the US at age two. He served with the Union Army during the Civil War, and later in Arizona, being dicharged as a first sargeant. He moved to New Haven, Ct. and went to work for both Parker shotguns, and later Winchester. He established Ideal Tools in 1884 and sold it to Marlin Firearms Co. in order to retire and travel. He died of a heart attack in 1912 while visiting his daughter in Venice, Italy.
The old ads I have show an address of 30 Willow St. in New Haven, but I'm not sure if this was before or after Marlin owned them.
I show Marlin's address as 79 Willow St. New Haven, Ct.
  

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RJM
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If you look at google maps....
Reply #6 - Sep 20th, 2009 at 7:53pm
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If you look at google maps, 79 Willow St has a factory still on it. However, 30 Willow show just an entrance to I-91 and an overgrown area. It looks like any trace of the Ideal factory was demolished for I-91. 

That was the golden age of arms making in the Connecticut River valley! 

Thanks for the info.
Regards, Ron
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #7 - Sep 21st, 2009 at 10:20pm
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Gentlemen,
Having been born in, and raised near New Haven, I've also been interested in the location of Ideal.  I've attached a portion of a map dating to 1910, showing the Marlin complex.  That is Willow Street running a bit diagonally near the bottom of the picture.  With the exception of the northwest corner, the entire block seems to be Marlin.  FYI, pink represents a masonry structure, yellow is wood.  I suspect that the semi-detached masonry building at the SE corner of the block may have been "30 Willow St".  Marlinguy, I think that the entrance to I91 would be in that empty block on the right, though it might be just past the river

In the current issue of the "Black Powder Cartridge News", there is a reproduction of an old Ideal advertisement giving an address of "No. 5 U St., New Haven".  I don't know the date for the advertisement.  There is no longer a U Street in New Haven, and I haven't been able to locate any other reference to it.  My sister's mother-in-law has a vague recollection that in the 30s, there might have been some letter named streets in the south west of the city, but I can't confirm that.

I'm just starting a vacation, and I'll try to get down to the NH Historical Society-- they might have a notion about "U Street".

Regards,
Doug
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #8 - Sep 23rd, 2009 at 5:21pm
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I stopped at the New Haven Historical Society today and did a bit of research in the library.  One thing became clear-- Ideal moved around a lot.

In 1866 it was at 208 Orange Street.
In 1869 it was probably at 20 Howard Avenue, but possibly Howard St.
In 1889 it was at 187 Saint John St.
As far as the nice library lady and I could tell, there has never been a "U" street in New Haven.  The 5 "U" street is probably a reference to Union Street, near the rail yards, and not to be confused with Union Avenue.
At some point, it was at 30 Willow Street, presumably when it was owned by Marlin.
Then it moved to Middlefield Connecticut after its purchase by Lyman.
I wouldn't be surprised if it occupied other addresses as well.

So, anyone conducting a pilgrimage to the old Ideal sites will have their work cut out for them!
Doug Nelson
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #9 - Sep 23rd, 2009 at 6:50pm
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Doug,
You really did a great job digging this up. Here's a related question!

What other locations did Lyman use before the one over by Lake Beseck in Middlefield? I still remember the optical board used to focus scopes that was down by the pond until a few years ago. 

Regards, Ron
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #10 - Sep 23rd, 2009 at 8:20pm
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Ron,
I don't know of any other locations for Lyman.  The Lyman family has been in the Middlefield area forever.  Wasn't there a history of Lyman published some years back?  I think it was included with those nice Ruger #1 Lyman commemorative cased sets, but is probably available elsewhere.  That would have what you want to know.
Doug
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #11 - Sep 23rd, 2009 at 8:58pm
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That book is a little paperback and was still in the catalog at least until a couple-three years ago.  Some opportunists were trying to sell it on flea-bay at the time for a starting price higher than it could be bought straight from the source!  Roll Eyes

froggie
  
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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #12 - Sep 24th, 2009 at 2:41am
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The book was titled "The Centennial Journal" in the hardcover edition, then issued as "Lyman Centennial Journal 1878-1978" in the paperback version. Somehow, I ended up with both.
  

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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #13 - Sep 25th, 2009 at 6:34pm
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Thanks for that great detective work Doug! I'm printing it out to keep with my Ideal and Marlin collection! 
I had one of those Ruger Lyman rifles, and I planned to copy the book before selling it, but couldn't do so without damaging it. Great info inside it!
  

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Re: When did it become Lyman-Ideal?
Reply #14 - Sep 25th, 2009 at 6:42pm
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Dooh! I should have remembered the book. I'll have to pick up one of them. I have a centennial rifle & scope, but it came without the box & extras.
Thanks, Ron

  
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