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New gun book (Read 5042 times)
leadball
Ex Member
New gun book
Apr 21
st
, 2009 at 8:53pm
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I read a new book last month, American Rifle by Alexander Rose, its a good book on the ineptness of the military in choosing our weapons. leadball
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Joe_S
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Re: New gun book
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Apr 21
st
, 2009 at 9:41pm
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I havent read the book yet, but I read the review in the recent Journal and decided that I definately want to read it. I am perfectly willing to accept that fact that there is more than enough ineptness to go areound, but one way or the other , the rifles in US service have not been bad: 1873 Trapdoor, O3 Springfield, M1 carbine, M-1, M-14 and even the M-16 turned out to be pretty good. I look forward to reading the book in any event. Joe S
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marlinguy
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Re: New gun book
Reply #2 -
Apr 21
st
, 2009 at 10:32pm
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There have been, and always will be a lot of strange reasons for the US Military to choose certain weapons. In old days it was often the lack of respect for the foot soldiers. In the case of the Trapdoor, it was chosen over repeating arms for just this reason. The powers that be thought the average foot soldier incapable of maintaining accurate fire with a repeater, without wasting ammo.
They also turned down good candidates when testing guns at trials, just because they felt the average soldier couldn't clean and disassemble them.
So simple and single was the top priority in the pre 1900 era military.
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boats
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Re: New gun book
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Apr 22
nd
, 2009 at 8:04am
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Leadball & Marlinguy, The Government goes it's own way when it comes to procurement that's for sure.
Just finished reading a book about the Higgins boat and how the Navy resisted the design. Army overrode them after seeing it in trials. Compared to what the Bureau of Ships wanted the LCVP saved thousands of lives assaulting beaches.
However I am not so sure about the Trapdoor. Post Civil War there was little threat to the county and plenty of musket parts to build breech loading service rifles.
When the Trapdoor was re-designed and mostly built from new parts around 1873 repeating rifles used low power pistol cartridges. Even Custer had quick firing ability, the Colt revolver. Little Big Horn Custer did not use the long range massed fire capability of his 45/70's. That's not the rifles fault.
Tubular magazines lever guns of the period used are weak points for military service crimp the magazine it's not going to work plus they are pretty easy to jam with dirt. Infantry needed a long range powerful reliable rifle that handled the 45/70 cartridge. Trapdoors were about as good as any plus they were in service and available.
By the time the strong action repeating 1886 Winchester was on the market the Kraig & Smokeless powder was around the corner. My guess is the limited availability of smokeless is the thing that kept Trapdoors in service so long not any government bias toward single shots.
I do remember well the introduction of the M16, We went to a demonstration were they shot ammo cans filled with water with spectacular results. I looked at the pipsqueak cartridge and was not impressed. We thought the government was crazy to give up something powerful and effective. Looking back at it now and seeing how small arms are used in conflicts today, lots of rounds none aimed, I guess it was a good choice.
But I am a armchair historian & Trapdoor fan. Respecting other opinions on the subject.
Boats
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Joe_S
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Re: New gun book
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Apr 22
nd
, 2009 at 5:29pm
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I am also a trapdoor fan. I shot the trapdoor in highpower competition for several years, and was able to get ten well aimed shots off in a minute or 70 seconds, rapid fire from standing to prone and standing to sitting position. It is as well made as any rifle could be, and extreamly reliable. The three position tumbler is great, it loads and ejects much faster than a Sharps, rolling block or any of its contemporaries. The breechblock is a little bit cumbersome in the prone position but it can be managed. People tend to forget that the repeating rifles of the time were only chambered in pistol cartridges. I would NOT want to equip an army with rifles that could only fire pistol ammunition. I recently met a fellow who has original documentation that Custer complained about the ammunition that he was given for the campaign at the Little Big Horn. The Army had brass cartridges and Custer wanted them instead of the copper cased ammo, but the Army insisted he take the copper cartridges to use them up. Another example of the high command having no respect for the common soldier. Bad ammo and no training put the 7th Cav at a distinct disadvantage. I'd like to know if the court of inquiry ever got into the deicison to send the troops into combat with defective ammo or if they ever touched on the subject of lack of proper training. The trapdoor can appear to be awkward to use to those who havent practiced with it.,but with a little practice, its a pretty darn good rifle. Joe S
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bnice
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Re: New gun book
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Apr 22
nd
, 2009 at 5:55pm
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There is a excellent book called Misfire by William H. Hallahan. It has been around for quite awhile and goes back to revolutionary war times through Veit Nam and the corruption and personal decissions that decided our military weapons for the last two hundred plus years. It talks about such things as to the reason behind why Harpers Ferry was located where it was and the corruption of our elected and cabinet officials. It talks about the fact that Lincoln ordered the Chief of Ordance to buy repeaters and how he defied him and bought single shots most likely extending the length of the war by a significant amount. The oscillation of the Chief of ordance position back and forth from Civilain to milatary. Good Read, highly recommend it. We still see history repeat it self today with our future small arms weapons and the influence a few polititions and hirer up military can havemin decissions.
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boats
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Re: New gun book
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Apr 23
rd
, 2009 at 8:10am
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Bnice, here we are hundred years later debating. It is interesting though here is my take.
The Harper's ferry decision, putting the 2nd Arsenal in the South rather than building all arms in Springfield Mass is going on today, it's exactly the same back and forth.
Navy has a big carrier fleet based in Norfolk. One is slated to move to Mayport Florida. going to cost the taxpayer millions to build the infrastructure. Is it better to keep all the ships same place? Is the decision strategic, spread the risk or political spread the pork.
Some things never change
On Lincoln and the repeaters. It's true repeating rifles of the day were useful for calvary but regular infantry they were not up to the 58 cal minnie ball rifle. In my opinion that is.
Stand in the Confederate lines at Fredericksburg and look at the terrain they defended with muzzle loaded Minnie balls. You would not want to use a rim fire 44 Henry to stop a determined Army advancing . Same in reverse Gettysburg. Henry's would not have stopped Pickett's charge Hundreds of yards over open ground.
Those muzzle loaders put down a fierce fire hundreds of yards before the Henry's would have been effective.
Boats
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Last Edit: Apr 23
rd
, 2009 at 8:24am by boats
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leadball
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Re: New gun book
Reply #7 -
Apr 23
rd
, 2009 at 3:45pm
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The Military had trials after the Civil war to decide on a new rifle, the Peabody won the trials but in their great wisdom chose the Trapdoor, what about that decision. leadball
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13Echo
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Re: New gun book
Reply #8 -
Apr 23
rd
, 2009 at 5:56pm
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The decision was largely economic. With thousands and thousands of perfectly good muzzeloaders and an extremely limited post war budget it made economic sense to use a conversion that utilized as much of the inventory on hand as possible. Literally, "Lock, Stock, and Barrel". As good as the Peabody was it just cost more and the US military didn't have the money. Everyone knew the Trapdoor was a stopgap but it got the job done and it was and is a pretty damn good rifle.
There seems to be a cottage industry these days of second guessing everything the military does or has done or will do but, when it comes down to it, the weapons supplied the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen have usually proven pretty darn good. That's not to say there haven't been FUBARs as in the introduction of the M16.
Jerry Liles
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Joe_S
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Re: New gun book
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Apr 23
rd
, 2009 at 8:59pm
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What would be the advantage of the Peabody over the trapdoor? I am not too familiar with the Peabody. thanks! Joe S
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