Thought I'd start this and keep it out of the For Sale section but Red Stevens had posted some interesting stuff about prices recently paid for various firearms at auction along with the discussion of the Pope Stevens at the Maryland show that's going on another thread.  I am not trying to upset anybody here as whatever they ask or pay for a firearm is entirely up to them.  I am just curious as to why some justify such a great price and others don't get near what others of similar provenance get.  I'll give some examples:  On the James Julia site, Henry rifles typically brought in from 30-50K, Remington revolvers up to 25K.  Two of Annie Oakleys guns sold for 184K-207K.  I can probably understand why Annie's guns drew that much attention and would be considered rather rare.  But a LR Roller "only" brought $6900 and a LR Hepburn brought $8050.  There was a Zischang Borchardt with false muzzle, double set triggers, Schuetzen stock and rifled by Pope that "only" brought in $11,500.  Last summer, Amoskeag "only" received $7475 for Fulton's LR Roller that he used in the first Creedmoor match of 1874.  To me, the last rifles I listed are more rare than a typical Henry or Remington revolver yet don't command the high prices that some others do.  Not looking for advice as I can't afford even the "only" prices.  Just wondering what some of you thought was going on with the high buck market???

In a word, desire.  As log as two bidders are there wanting it, the price will rise until one of them doesn't desire it that much.  It only takes two determined bidders (with deep pockets) to take a given item at auction to new and unheard of heights.  Now if I could find two such folks for a few things of mine... 

Froggie

We as singleshot  collectors - shooters are the minority. Or as Joe Williams told me once, the oddball bunch.

As a collector shooter it's comforting to know some of the old original SS target rifles are still within reach.   

Cabellas is working hard to change all that, and it bugs me. I got into singleshots for the love of them not the financial returns. 


Hang onto what you have because it will eventually get into the hands of the greedy and only the rich will own our SS rifles.

I'd like to have met Annie Oakley. 


                                                    Joe.

                             

Old guy near my home in Virginia was a serious Henry collector, couple of dozen high grades. Family friend.

When I was working down in Australia and there gun laws changed local guy in the gun club had a nice engraved Henry in his collection. Wanted to sell it out of the country.  He Figured it was worth 30K Aussie, Which was just a bit over 16,000 US at the time.  He had a Peabody Creedmore too but that's another story.

I took some good photos of the Henry, before digital, And sent them to my friend back home.  He through the gun was just right but,  Seems a Texas collector had bought a bunch of mint Henry's in the late 1930's and had them engraved just like Factory mid 19th century originals. Time passes and people forget plus the rifle ages. Hard to tell right from wrong.

Anyway he made an offer, full asking price subject to inspection by a couple of known US Henry experts with a bond against fake.  Aussie declined the offer and never said anything else about it.

Collectors are a funny bunch and fakes abound when the dollar gets high.  No better than Pope rifles were documented and with mixed origin, Harry doing the work, Stevens doing the work when Harry was with them, and Stevens selling Pope models after he left, plus the re-works and alterations Target rifles aways get. I suspect it would be pretty easy to fake one. 

Only question would be does it pay. If so you can bet some are fakes.  I have seen some Popes I believe to be Original and think several of our members could authenticate one if need be, but the average Joe is probably not going to be able to.

That's just my opinion and based on no facts.

Boats

I’ll try to expand on my last post and will endeavor use examples with which I’m familiar….

Rifle #1 This rifle was sold recently and was part of Ray Day’s estate; it’s a Hiwall Winchester Helm Model in 32-40 with Pope (Winchester) barrel false muzzle and accessories, half octagon half round full matted in excellent to new condition and is a truly wonderful example of Harry Pope’s finest work. I believe that it went for about $30,000.00 at the auction. Ray bought the rifle from Vic Cavello in Fresno and I remember looking at it when he first got it, it was absolutely prefect and in near new condition, I think Harry Pope was probably the last person to have a screwdriver on it; as Ray would say “That rifle’s really right.”

Rifle #2 Pope Hiwall 32-40 with false muzzle and all the accessories, I’m not going to give you all the lurid details on this one, but I will say that when I first saw it, it was the equal to rifle #1, only that shortly thereafter the owner ringed the barrel just ahead of the chamber and then traded it off to another collector who shortened the barrel and re-chambered it to eliminate the ring. This rifle is out there in “Pope land” somewhere and I doubt that the owner knows what happened; maybe he’d rather not know.

Rifle #3 A Hiwall Special Sporting Rifle with a Stevens – Pope barrel, no false muzzle or accessories, but a nice looking gun. It’s very unlikely that this rifle is original and in all likelihood this gun was assembled from parts of other rifles, it does happen to be an excellent shooter, but it’s not a good collector’s gun.

My point is that if you are going to pay top money $$$ for a single-shot rifle, you want Rifle #1, you don’t want Rifle #2 and you certainly don’t want Rifle #3, the problem is that they’re all great looking guns, only that #2 has been seriously altered and #3 is a Frankenstein! Both #2 and #3 would be worth only a fraction of #1.  So, I guess that what I’m saying is Caveat Emptor.

Bob

The reasons that a collectable single shot brings money are as different as the bidders that are buying them. Some of us look at a Pope Winchester and see a masterpiece other collectors look at it and see an altered Winchester single shot. Some see a rifle owned by Fulton and shot in the 1874 match at Creedmoor and others see a “campaigned rifle” that has a ding or wear and not “factory pristine”. I know that one seller of a large collection was surprised when some of his Pope, Schoyen and Niedner rifles went for lower prices than the factory original rifles in the collection. 
  As to shoot or not to shoot that fine old Pope or other collectable makers rifle. They were made to be shot. I think that if Pope found out that his rifles were going into collections to set in a glass case and be admired as objects d’art he would rise up out of his grave and take them back if he could. All of the alterations that Pope made to a rifle were for the purposes of improving the shooting not for the eye. He once said that he did not bother with engraving or a fancy stock because it didn’t make the rifle shoot any better. He didn’t bother to finish the outside of the barrel of his own #150 leaving the outside as it came off the rolls, and the stock was never finished or checkered. Any decoration that you find on a Pope rifle was done by someone else. 
  The rifles should be taken care of and shot responsibly and one that is ringed or otherwise ruined is a great loss, but they were made to be shot. This makes as much since to me as seeing a Ferrari in some collectors garage and never put on the road. 

40 Rod

This is a great Topic! I think there are a lot of people who have so much money, that no matter what they collect, If they want it, they are going to buy it. Common folks like a lot of us that make just enough to slide by and maybe go on a nice vaction every 2-3 years. But in the real world, there are so many people that have so much money, it is hard to comprehend! I have a friend that has shot professional Skeet for 25 years, and he shoots a $80, 000.00 4 barrel shotgun set! When I was shooting with him, I had a $3500.00 set! he shoots what he shoot because he can afford it!
But I hope that I don't make a lot of people mad, but it is a same to have all those classic guns be locked in a safe! If I was a millonare I still would shoot every gun I had! i wouldn't throw them around, because when I put a ding in one of my clunkers it makes me what to cry!
I apoligies if I have offend anyone that buys to lock them away!
ACE

Sorry,
I just cant get into using $ 40,000. rifles, even occasionally, there just way to valuable and historically important,  and no matter how careful a person you are accidents can and do happen. My outlook on them is that they should be retired and admired for what they are. There will never be any more Pope rifles made and the ones that have survived should be preserved like the museum pieces that they are. I don't see any reason to use such a rifle. 

It doesn't matter when the damage to rifle # 2 was done, 1972 or 2002, damage was done and it can never again be original the way Pope made it. The only care and common sense would be to not use these valuable and historically important firearms.

The most expensive rifle I shoot may be worth about $ 4,000., currently made, looks just like most any other Schuetzen rifle, and shoots about as good as any on the range, and if something goes wrong, or if I accidentally brake or damage something, I can have it replaced or redone, not a big deal. 

40 rod, Bob, 
How often do you guys shoot your older $ 40,000., or even your $ 20,000. rifles ?. I may be wrong on this but I'm betting that you don't have any rifles in that price range that you shoot, and if you do, think about this next time your at the range, this may be the time that damage will be done, think about this every time you squeeze or touch the trigger, this may be the last shot you fire out of this rifle, then what do you think your $ 40,000., or $ 20,000. rifle will be worth, if you keep this thought in your mind I don't think you scores will be worth recording, remember, you can no longer send it off to H. M. Pope for another barrel, or for anything else for that matter, those days are gone forever, and so will your original Schuetzen Rifle. 

Yes, it can be fixed, but there's no way it can ever be original again, and for it to have that kind of high value it must be original, otherwise it's not much different than my $ 4,000. rifle.
S-T

"The gun is yours. What you do with it is your business"

True enough, you paid for it, you own it, have it your way, do what you want with it. 

But don't forget, we are not talking about cars made by Ford or people that would be nice to make love to, we are talking about something that one of the great masters of all times made and there will be no more. 

Like I've said, there are shooters and there are collectors, look at it as a rare collectors item, after all that's what it is, no serious shooter that knows anything about shooting pays that kind of money because he thinks it's a gun that will shoot better than anything that can be built today. 

A better comparison instead of factory cars or people may be Coins, some old Coins are rare and worth thousands of dollars, they would never be carried lose in your pocket or used in a vending machine, other Coins are nothing more than just money to be used to buy stuff with. 

  Again, if you bought and paid for it it's yours to do what you want, but IMO it's not a good idea to take the chance of something like that being damaged because of it's high historical value and the high dollar value.

BTW,
I've been a collector of high end guns for many years, bought them and sold them, and have seen more than my share of them messed up, am now a shooter so I've been on both sides of the fence on issues like this
S-T

What amazes me more than shooting them is what prices the collectors are willing to pay and why they pay it for a particular firearm.  Why do the prices hold up over time??  To me, Fulton's Creedmoor rolling block should have sold for a premium compared to the Henry's that go for up to $50K or more.  Pristine must be what they are looking for; also anything connected to the Civil War or some provenance to the west.  Joe, I know what you mean about Cabela's.  I have a store just south of me and stopped in about two weeks ago and they had a Ballard Pacific in there for $19,999 and when I looked at it, it was a complete redo.  Unbelievable  Leadball has probably nailed it with people wanting Winchester levers and Colts.

marlinguy wrote on Mar 31^st, 2009 at 7:38pm:



LOL ! Yes, 6000 is the limit with the FE engine.  Great engines though if you have deep pockets for fuel.   


                                          Joe.

FE motor? Boy I sure goofed on that. Of course a 57 T Bird would have a 312, I knew that.     AKA  the Y block.  I owned several when I was young and never wrecked one by spinning it too fast. 


                                              Joe.

OL_DUCE
Great minds think alike.

The man got me going as to what I really had, Went to the gun and 
looked for the most expensive Winchesters at that show and asked 
the man about my gun .I gave him all but the last number, He looked
in his paper work looked at me looked at his paper and said 5g sight-unseen.I told him the gun is not for sale..... He wanted a phone # and
a name  which I wouldn't give- My next step is Cody. 

I will shoot the barrel out before I would sell to a "Big Collector"

Ol Deuce

slumlord44 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2009 at 10:03pm:


Wow! Im very impressed by any 312 that can crank out 6000 rpm, and even more impressed at 7000 rpm's!!!!

Bob,

It sounds like there are Shooters and there are Collectors and then there are Shooter/Collectors. At the same time, there are some like me who will go out and buy a rifle just because he likes the looks of it, whatever its provinance, or whether he can afford it or not, and dream of the small groups it will shoot, despite his shortcomings. And, being the crappy shot that I am, I become more than satisfied if it just goes BOOM !! .... and anticipate the next outing when I can do it all over again. Having humility is a good thing. 

I hope I will find humility when I need it.

I have paid more for some rifles than they are worth, and paid less for others ... the former condition usually prevails, but that's okay; it probably doesn't really matter in The Grand Plan.

I am also of the opinion that if nothing ever got used up or thrown away, the world would look like my garage, and that would not be a good thing.

But, what do I know 

OLR

I don't have a Maynard.  Or a Whitney Laidley or a Farrow or---

                         Joe.

marlinguy wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 9:35pm:


I forgot Bullard. I need one of them bad!!   

                                                          Joe.

Gosh that seems like a lot Joe, but if you insist I guess I'll take it! Please send address to send funds to!!!!!