Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bullet Yawing (Read 6831 times)
Kurt_701
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1048
Location: Missouri
Joined: May 20th, 2004
Bullet Yawing
Feb 10th, 2009 at 9:29pm
Print Post  
I posted this on Wyoming Site, but I would appreciate input from here also. 
I have had bullets in a 25/20SS , .32 Ideal, & 32/40 appear to be not stablized when penetrating a target. Sometimes they seem to show promise in group size. I have always returned to Greenhill's formula and checked twists. I have had a urge to increase velocity ( powder charge) as an answer. It often has not helped. I try to shoot ( cast ) bullets a .001-.002 over bore dia. I breech seat. I use Emmerts and SPG lubes. I have considered casting harder alloy. Most of what I shoot is 30/1 or 25/1. 
In a 25/20 SS with 7.5 grs of AA #9 and 86gr 25720 I get around 1427 FPS. I have considered using a #2 alloy. I am an old x-course Highpower shooter, and yawing is generally a product of loss of stabilization due to a loss of velocity in the appropriate twist. I would appreciate any comments. 
Kurt
  

M-14 3rd Battalion 27th Marines RVN 68'69'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Rheinisch-Westfälisc
hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken

Posts: 2259
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #1 - Feb 10th, 2009 at 9:36pm
Print Post  
Kurt,

Inboard yaw is a problem in any rifle, with proper breech-seating it can usually be reduced to a very small amount. Now, what sort of breech seater do you use? Is it adjustable? Can you adjust the seating depth?

Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4223
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #2 - Feb 10th, 2009 at 11:47pm
Print Post  
Bob:

You are shooting a light weight or short bullet for a quarter bore. However the lack of twist resulting in tipping is usually due to pushing too long of a bullet. You checked your twist and bullet length using Greenhill's formula; so what did it tell you?

For my .25 RKS I am shooting a 122 grain Jones of 1.047" length with 20:1 alloy with 12.2 grains H108 or AA#9 with Alberta Schuetzen lube without gas checks at 1,810 fps. Shooting this fast with plain base bullets will result in immediate leading unless you wipe the barrel with oil prior to the first shot. After that the bullet lube from the first bullet coats the barrel and you can shoot about fifty shots without significant leading. Not sure how much you can load up your case before you might get pressure signs. An adjustable breech seater will give you a bit more space to increase your loads but I am not sure what the maximum load would be for your case.

I am shooting a RKS barrel that was specifically rifled with Greenhill's formula for this specific bullet and I have no tipping or yaw.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kurt_701
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1048
Location: Missouri
Joined: May 20th, 2004
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #3 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 12:06pm
Print Post  
I am using a Weber adjustable seater. I have it set to where I engrave about half of the bullet base band.  I have a 1-10 twist which should work for 105-110 gr bullets.  I shoot 257231 110 grs and a Hoch 257105  105gr ( hoch casts .258 I prefer .259-260).  I also shoot 25720 86gr and Ideal #6 tool 88grs bullets.
I believe that if I could prevent the yawing, the accuracy might improve.  
Kurt
  

M-14 3rd Battalion 27th Marines RVN 68'69'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Rheinisch-Westfälisc
hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken

Posts: 2259
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #4 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 12:32pm
Print Post  
Kurt,

Talk to Russ Weber about your seating depth, you might try seating your bullet a little deeper, to where it engraves almost to the base, but call Russ first and see what he thinks.

Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4223
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #5 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 2:01pm
Print Post  
Kurt:

What kind of back board are you shooting at. I have had some yawing of slow moving bullets fired against hard OSB boards; however they would not yaw when fired through softer back boards. Some bullets pivot before pentrating hard back boards. Couldn't tell from the pictures if you were having yawing problems. But then I can't see too well. Other rifles I have seen yaw would almost have some of the bullets penetrating sideways.

Dave
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
leadball
Ex Member


Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #6 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:36pm
Print Post  
If those 25 cal holes were brought up about one minute of angle I see six or seven 25's --two or three 24's the other hole is a mystery. I'll take some of that yawing any day--seriously I don't see any yawing. When the shots are clustered like this I don't care if they go through side-ways.     leadball
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kurt_701
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1048
Location: Missouri
Joined: May 20th, 2004
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #7 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 8:24pm
Print Post  
Thanks for the replies. The larger holes on the left are for a 3 ring binder.  The 2 holes in the 25 ring are 25/20.  For some reason they do look larger in the scan than they do on the real target. Maybe my expectations are too great. Cluster is a great term.  I would prefer a tight group. We do have very hard back stop. It is very old, true 3/4 exterior plywood that was our shelter's deck for 40 years.  I have always had the opinion that yawing was a factor of twist vs bullet length in cast bullets. The 25's seem more tempermental than the .32's. The velocity of the 25's is around 1427fps. Does the higher velocity warrant a harder alloy?  I do not see much leading. I would like to learn more. thanks,
Kurt
  

M-14 3rd Battalion 27th Marines RVN 68'69'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bnice
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1944
Location: Iowa
Joined: Nov 30th, 2006
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #8 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 9:55pm
Print Post  
I have a twenty five that shoots very well but tips just a little. I can get rid of it with a .1 grain more of powder, but the accuracy doesn't appear to improve. I did loss a match once because a double was called a tip, leaving me 9 shots (in bench).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #9 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:43am
Print Post  
What I see is stringing up and down if you feel a need for improvement and you are happy with your seating depth add a couple of clicks to your powder. Don't get hung up on a speed let the target tell you when to stop right now it is telling you to add powder. When the groups start to open up again back off accordingly.

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #10 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 10:11am
Print Post  
Kurt,

  From my experience with the .25/20SS I've found that the original twist rate will not handle a bullet over 75 - 80 grs. This is also the conclusion a friend has come to with his rifle. There are some rifles that are exceptions to this rule.

  My main competition .25/20SS has a 1-10" twist and I shoot a 100 gr. Darr bullet in that. I mention this to point up that my powder charge is 7.0 gr.s of AA#9 so I don't think more powder is your problem. 7.2 grs. and the group opens up by about half. Your current MV should be in the accuracy range. I wouldn't go much over 1500 fps. You can up the charge a bit but I've found that even tho you can improve the roundness of the bullet holes at 100 yds., you will still have tipping at 200.

  You said you have checked your bullet and twist to the Greenhill formula. What is the twist of your rifle? The experience around here is that the 50 constant does not work all that well with the velocities in the 1400 - 1500 fps range. We use a constant of 25 or 30.

  I use a 1-25 Tin/Lead alloy, so don't think going harder will improve things. Also use Emmerts lube.

  Yawing is a product of to LONG a bullet for to slow a twist. I think your breech seating to engrave half the base band is right on. The back stop should have nothing to do with a bullet tipping.

PETE

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kurt_701
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1048
Location: Missouri
Joined: May 20th, 2004
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #11 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 1:02pm
Print Post  
Gentlemen,
I appreciate the comments. As you can tell, I think that I should be able to get better groups out of a 25. I have rifles with both 1-12 and 1-10 twists.  My twist is 1-10 in this case, and I have been trying to stay in the 85gr -110 gr range bullet weight. I will take a another look at Greenhills with a change in the constant vs length of my bullets. My powder range has been AA#9, 7grs- 10 grs, or 4227,  7-11 grs.  The velocity range has been 1400- 1600fps. I thought the higher velocity might require a harder alloy.  Most of my bullets are either 25/1 of 30/1.  I have mostly Bertram brass with small rifle primer pockets.  ??? DOES ANYONE USE SMALL PISTOL PRIMERS?  Has anyone used any Lil' Gun with any success? Thanks,

Kurt
  

M-14 3rd Battalion 27th Marines RVN 68'69'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #12 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 7:34pm
Print Post  
Kurt,

 With the twist you have you should easily be able to get stability with the bullets you have,  especially with your 1-10" twist. Altho I haven't gone to that heavy a bullet I've been told the 1-10" twist will handle up to 120 grs. So you might try a little harder alloy. Say 1-20 to start. It could be that pushing the bullets at 1600 fps, as you mention, might be causing nose slumping, which would easily cause tipping.

 Just on the off chance there might be something wrong with your barrel there are two things I'd check. The first is the crown. Make sure there aren't any "dings" around the mouth. I've seen amazing changes in accuracy when this was corrected. The other that most people don't check is to make sure your barrel is smaller at the muzzle than the breech. If your barrel was installed by a reputable gunsmith he should have checked this, but you never know.

  I sure hope you're having better luck with Bertram brass  than I and many others have had. Considering the price of the cases a 20% reject rate was to expensive for me so make my own now, altho I'd recommend Rocky Mtn. Cart. as they seem to hold up well.

 I haven't personally tried Lil Gun but a friend says it works great with jacketed bullets in the Hornet. If he sees this post he can give you the details.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kurt_701
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1048
Location: Missouri
Joined: May 20th, 2004
Re: Bullet Yawing
Reply #13 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 3:11pm
Print Post  
I am not fond of the Bertram brass either.  The reason I asked about Lil Gun is because that is what shoot in a Hornet.  I have some luck with it in the hornet. My 25/20 barrel seems good. Thanks for the sugggestions.
Kurt
  

M-14 3rd Battalion 27th Marines RVN 68'69'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint