I'm a relative newbie to breech seating... essentially everthing I know I learned here in the last 6 months or so.

Happy to pass that on..

Breech seating is pushing your lead bullet into the rifling with whichever manner of tool is convenient and useful (more on that in a moment).  Then put your primed, powder charged case in after it.  Most often, with some sort of light wad on top to keep you from accidentally spilling any powder.

Typically, most folks seemt to think that a bullet should be seated fully in front of where the case ends in the chamber, and far enough into the rifling that the rifling engraves on the base-band of the bullet. 

As for the tool to put it there...
A case with a piece of dowel the right length in it (a "plug") will work if the rifle you're breech seating in has some camming force to the block.  That is, a rifle with a block that moves striaght up and down, with little or no bevel on the block face will be difficult to use a plugged case in... not much force can be applied.

There are also a number of different tools made for different actions that will seat the bullet into the rifleing. I don't know much about 'em... I have started out with a variation on the plugged case, made by a friend of mine.  It has a case, and a piston inside with a domed top in back.. It works well in my Aydt, but can't quite work in my Martini (not enough bevel on the block).

Now.. as for "why" to breech seat;
The theory (and remember, I'm new at it with relatively little experience) is that it can seat your bullet into the rifling more concentrically than using fixed ammo that whacks the bullet in the butt and makes it "jump" to the rifling.
I will say, that I have had better accuracy in my testing with the breech seated bullets I've tested than I had with the Stop-Ring bullets in my 8.15x46R Aydt. 

Hope this makes things a little clearer!
Paul F.

I'm using smokeless...

I don't think there's any reason not to use black, but I think (just my impression), that most folks tend to go with smokeless and breech seating, and fixed for black.
But if anyone who has more experience (that's almost everyone) contradicts that, listen to 'em


Paul F.

I question the advantages of breachseating. how do u know the bullet is straight in the bore. For me a good tight neck concentric chamber works best. Benchrest guns are the most accurate in the world.
they rely on a concentric tight neck to locate the bullet to the bore. cases last just as long to. I still have some of the original cases first fired in my guns and they havent changed none have been resized. Shoot, clean case, reprime, charge powder,slide bullet in case.shoot again. no fumbling with bullets or powder in chamber.
how many people here use a tight neck chamber?
tom

Screwloose hear what you are saying,

Breech is a whole lot less trouble. No case prep work.  I switched a fixed ammo BPCS rifle in 38/55 to a Breech seated Schuetzen and it performed better.  I always called it a 2 moa rifle when shooting fixed ammo. 2 moa was from cross sticks at 200 yards.

Now I call it a 1 1/2 Moa rifle. It will maintain that sort of performance on shot 100 of a Hudson match.  My other  offhand rifle in 32/40 using smokeless powder has only been breech seated so have no comparison. I think it's a 1 1/2 moa gun too.  Difference in performance fixed vs breech is not a lot but does make a difference in scores. Or does to my scores anyway.

Offhand rifles don't shoot worth a hoot from a bench rest though and thats what both of mine are.  I will run 10 round groups using a high front rest holding the muzzle with the rifles hook plate in my shoulder and elbows on the bench.  While the positon is not perfect when the shot breaks you know exactly were it should be on target.  

Improvement with the 38/55 when switching to breech seating was noticable.  Thats also how I came up with the 1 1/2 moa figure. the 32/40 or 38/55 barrel will keep them inside 3 inches at 200 yards anytime muzzle and elbow rest.

Proper bench rest set up it could be better. 3 inches at 200 is not going to win a bench rest match at our club. Guys that are winning bench rest matches in a bench rest stocked rife and with the same loads breech seated are getting better results. It takes 3/4 moa to clean the ASSRA target. 

But the main reason I Breech seat is less trouble.

Boats

like paul said if i were building a new rifle i would not consider breach seating. My tight neck loads are within .0005 concentricity cant check concentricity with bullet shoved into rifling. agood chamber is the answer to accuracy & a lot of practice. easier is the less u have to fool with. my 30/30 wesson martini will usually put ten into less than an inch with a couple of cast bullets. i also have a 7mm ihsma in a m/s sporter that is the same way.i think if it works in benchrest it should also work off hand.tight groups require consistancy.
tom

Minor point of contention...
A benchrest chamber in the bolt-action competition sense of the word will have almost zero clearance above the outside neck diameter, and will ALSO require no sizing, and last for hundreds of firings (and that's in a higher pressure realm than schutzen...).

I won't take a stand on which (fixed or breech seated) better aligns the bullet with the bore, and/or which is more accurate.  I dunno... I have a few more years of shooting before I can give an opinion backed up by personal experience on that score.

Paul F.

      When we insert a bullet into a case all sorts of bad things start to happen, but if we jump through enough hoops we can get close to breechseating.  If modern brenchrest shooters could breechseat a jacketed bullet thats exactly what they would be doing.   leadball

And if you don't tell anybody about what's in that schuetzen lube, it's even better yet since no one reveals the magic ingredient(s).

Need some Alberta Schuetzen lube.
Made on or after the full moon.

screwloosetc;
                    How would you go about breechsetting a jacketed bullet.
, and what is going to happen when you fire the rifle.  I'm fully aware of the accuracy that modern BR shooters get,their the best.  It seems to me that a breechseated bullet is exactly where we want the bullet to be, it can do nothing but go straight down the barrel. there are a number of things that can go wrong before a fixed round gets to that point.   leadball

Hi guys, New guy here.
Tom is talking about Ferris Pindell, he's the guy that along with Dr. Lou P, invented the 22 and 6 PPC, probably the most accurate cartridges in the world today for 100, 200, and 300 yd shooting, and I don't doubt one bit that he shot groups under 1/2 inch ( .460 ) with bullets loaded backwards in his 1.5 inch .308.  I would listen very close to anything either of those two guys say.
  S-T

I would listen closely too, if the conversation were about modern, bolt action, bench rest rifles using jacketed bullets, but it is not.  The question was about breech seating, which is a technique used with great success for single shot rifles of the non-bolt action types firing lead bullets.  The leading practitioners of this particular discipline have found breech seating to be a very useful and successful technique.   

If we were talking about crossbows, we could compare the benefits of carbon fiber vs aluminum shafts, if we were talking about fencing, the various types of epees would be in play, but the question was about breech seating, a technique for lead bullets in non-bolt action single shot rifles.  All other information, while true, interesting, and historical, is outside the scope of the original question.

A properly set-up rifle of the type under discussion will have a concentric chamber to the best degree possible by the gunsmith making the rifle, also a breech face and a receiver face that are fitted as perpendicular to the bore as possible (the former being no small feat with some rolling block actions.  These factors have been shown to be beneficial with virtually all types of rifles.  The chamber for a lead bullet gun will be cut to accept a specified case, but there will also (usually) be a special "throat" cut to accept the bullet as precisely and with as much repeatability as is attainable.  The lead bullet is inserted using a push seater, plugged case or mechanical seater to the same depth each time, frequently even with the same rotational configuration each time.  This method gives the best results for most current shooters of this type of rifle.  I trust this answers the question of the original poster, and if not, please drop me a PM and I will try to help if I can.

Regards,
Green Frog

Sorry I got off on a tangent.  maby a seperate thread comparing various means of getting into the one hole groups would be more apropriate. I tend to rely on my experiences and conversations with people who I thought were the best in the world at the time. yes Ferris Pindell is the P in the 6mm ppc. he would also coach u during a match with any help he could give.  the man loved the sport. last I heard of him he was making custom que sticks. another sport that requires a good eye. i apoligize again 
tom

Charlie
thanks ur pretty good for a green guy. u seem to express my opinions better than i can.

Leadball I was in the Shallow Water Navy the ones with White Hulls. Biggest gun I shot was a 3 inch 50 single shot falling block built in 1918.   

However have been on several Battleships looking around. First time when I was a kid and since on the Museum ships.  They used a hydraulic ram to to push the projectile into the rifling, and loaded bags of powder behind it to suit the intended result.  I also think but don't know in the Navy anything over a 5 inch was breech seated.  I do know the 5 inch guns were cartridge. Coast Guard had some of those on the big Cutters.

As a point of intrest the big army coastal defence guns were near clones of 16 inch naval guns and also breech seated.

We have the Wisconsin here on display and it's a nice tour.

Boats

Boats,

The 5-inch 38 was also breech seated, but with a mechanical rammer. Think of it as the biggest Borchardt you ever saw.  It was just a super-sized .38-55.

Waterman

Gentlemen I offer a thought and would appreciate any comments. The basis for this has it's origins in the rimfire world but it seems to make some sense. First, we now know the relative importance of having a chamber cut in perfect alignment to the bore. Today even with modern tooling, match barrels, and lots more knowledge[theoretically] it would surprise many how often that not to be the case. I suspect brecch seating would tend to reduce the issues of a less than perfectly centered chamber. Second, I would also tend to suspect that loaded rounds are often, less than coincentric. Modern benchrest loads assembled with the best hand tools in the world sometimes come up short in this regard. I'm not aware of any information regarding the technique of neck turning a case in the black powder era and might be one of the biggest reasons for using a single indexed case. The point is that in the .22 world I have been involved is some interesting testing relating to rimnfire ammunition coicentricity. It is thought by some that with a soft lead slug,even minimally missaligned, it will not tend to center itself upon initial ignition but will deform more to one side than the other and start down the bore less stable. With larger but soft slugs that single shots utilize often, I see no reason why some of the same principles might not exist here and might also be reduced with a breach seated slug. Cannot prove anything at all but always struck me as logical.

Quote:



Please do... I'm finding this discussion very interesting!

Paul F.

boats wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 7:27pm:



I'm pretty sure that this has less to do with any kind of accuracy and more to do with the fact that the charge weight could be varied based on mission, something not possible with fixed ammo.