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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) breech seating ?? (Read 15878 times)
Schuetzendave
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #15 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 3:11pm
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And if you don't tell anybody about what's in that schuetzen lube, it's even better yet since no one reveals the magic ingredient(s).

Need some Alberta Schuetzen lube.
Made on or after the full moon.
  
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screwloosetc
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #16 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 4:22pm
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id say the average benchrest shooter has more than enough resourcefullness to breach seat if he so desired. they work the tight neck because its best fot them its all about concentricity. in the 70s i was shooting benchrest against a man named Ferris Pindel. He maintained the requirements were a good bore with a concentric chamber. He was developing the 1" 1/2 308 at the time. Ferris kept no secrets. He would work with u so he didnt beat u to bad. I was present when he shot a .460 group with the bullets BACKWARD IN THE CASE During a match. Ferris also shot pool with Willy Mosconi.if ur going to build a rifle use a tight neck u can always breach seat if it dont work for u. My bullet seating tools are made with the same reamer that cut the chamber for what that is worth. Something mr.  Pindell taught me.
tom
  
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leadball
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #17 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 5:46pm
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screwloosetc;
                    How would you go about breechsetting a jacketed bullet.
, and what is going to happen when you fire the rifle.  I'm fully aware of the accuracy that modern BR shooters get,their the best.  It seems to me that a breechseated bullet is exactly where we want the bullet to be, it can do nothing but go straight down the barrel. there are a number of things that can go wrong before a fixed round gets to that point.   leadball
  
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screwloosetc
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #18 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 6:44pm
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leadball
not if u do it rite. bench rest amo is loaded in a controlled enviroment.clean bench with carefully selscted components. before u seat bullet do u clean chamber every time to get the fowling out? br starting from a clean case with known concentricity. not playing in the ashes. How do u transport ur bullets and powder and cases? Mine are safe in a loading block till i need them.my cases last till im through with them. they dont grow in my chambers. most wear is on primer pocket. im not shooting br now but I do apply their principals. 
tom
  
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Set_Trigger
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #19 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 9:22pm
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Hi guys, New guy here.
Tom is talking about Ferris Pindell, he's the guy that along with Dr. Lou P, invented the 22 and 6 PPC, probably the most accurate cartridges in the world today for 100, 200, and 300 yd shooting, and I don't doubt one bit that he shot groups under 1/2 inch ( .460 ) with bullets loaded backwards in his 1.5 inch .308.  I would listen very close to anything either of those two guys say.
  S-T
  
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boats
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #20 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 9:57pm
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Breech seat Jacketed ?  was watching TV some time ago, Discovery channel. Had a show about armour.  They were using a Bond Universal receiver on a indoor range.  While the show was not about the cartridge it was clear they were breechseating 50 cal rounds.    Shooting over a chronograph to duplicate down range velocity. Guy was bumping the powder charge to reach desired result.  Another example most large Naval guns were breech seated.   

No reason you can't breech seat jacketed high velocity rounds. Except match rules generally don't allow it.  Pure and simple only reason to squeeze a bullet into a case is to facilitate carrying and loading.  It's no advantage to accuracy.

Boats
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #21 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 10:06pm
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I would listen closely too, if the conversation were about modern, bolt action, bench rest rifles using jacketed bullets, but it is not.  The question was about breech seating, which is a technique used with great success for single shot rifles of the non-bolt action types firing lead bullets.  The leading practitioners of this particular discipline have found breech seating to be a very useful and successful technique.   

If we were talking about crossbows, we could compare the benefits of carbon fiber vs aluminum shafts, if we were talking about fencing, the various types of epees would be in play, but the question was about breech seating, a technique for lead bullets in non-bolt action single shot rifles.  All other information, while true, interesting, and historical, is outside the scope of the original question.

A properly set-up rifle of the type under discussion will have a concentric chamber to the best degree possible by the gunsmith making the rifle, also a breech face and a receiver face that are fitted as perpendicular to the bore as possible (the former being no small feat with some rolling block actions.  These factors have been shown to be beneficial with virtually all types of rifles.  The chamber for a lead bullet gun will be cut to accept a specified case, but there will also (usually) be a special "throat" cut to accept the bullet as precisely and with as much repeatability as is attainable.  The lead bullet is inserted using a push seater, plugged case or mechanical seater to the same depth each time, frequently even with the same rotational configuration each time.  This method gives the best results for most current shooters of this type of rifle.  I trust this answers the question of the original poster, and if not, please drop me a PM and I will try to help if I can.

Regards,
Green Frog
  
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Set_Trigger
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #22 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 11:54am
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Sorry,
I was only trying to inform others that may not know who Ferris Pindell is and that he and Dr. Lou P. are guys that know something about barrels, chambers and shooting. 

  I myself don't know anything about breech seating or why jacketed bullets are not breech seated, or even if they could be. Again sorry,  I was only trying to pass on some info as to who these guys were, it wont happen again.
  S-T
  
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screwloosetc
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #23 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 12:13pm
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Sorry I got off on a tangent.  maby a seperate thread comparing various means of getting into the one hole groups would be more apropriate. I tend to rely on my experiences and conversations with people who I thought were the best in the world at the time. yes Ferris Pindell is the P in the 6mm ppc. he would also coach u during a match with any help he could give.  the man loved the sport. last I heard of him he was making custom que sticks. another sport that requires a good eye. i apoligize again 
tom
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #24 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 2:19pm
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If I seemed too strident with my last response, it was not intentional.  Both Palmisano and Pindell (the two "Ps" of ppc) provided a huge amount of input to accurate shooting for all of us.  The techniques of modern bench rest also frequently have application in our style of shooting, including such strategies in the rifle building as I mentioned previously, the use of modern front rests with windage, windflags, reading mirage, and so on ad infinitum.

As we discuss building rifles, some of those techniques, especially those that involve getting the centerline of the bore square and concentric to the action, and the chamber concentric with that, etc. and as we talk about techniques of actually getting the shot off, some of the things mentioned in this thread will be quite valuable, and no apology is necessary.

Meanwhile, did you, Mr. Geronimo.tn, get the info you needed, or would you like further info about the different types of bullet seaters, depth of seating, powders, wads, etc?

Peace, love and good shooting!
Charlie Shaeff
the Green Frog
  
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screwloosetc
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #25 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 3:23pm
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Charlie
thanks ur pretty good for a green guy. u seem to express my opinions better than i can.
  
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leadball
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #26 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 7:09pm
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boats;
         Now I'm really interested in this thread, I watched a demostration once on the U.S.S North Carolina on loading the 16 inchers, the round [bullet] was loaded first and then about three bags of powder, but I"m not sure that it would be called breechseating because the round was not pushed into the rifling, I'm thinking. to push a jacket bullet into the rifiling of a 32 cal barrel one would need to have a strong breechseater with a long handle. thanks to all for your comments---I promise to never mention these funny [jacket] bullets again.    leadball
  
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boats
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #27 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 7:27pm
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Leadball I was in the Shallow Water Navy the ones with White Hulls. Biggest gun I shot was a 3 inch 50 single shot falling block built in 1918.   

However have been on several Battleships looking around. First time when I was a kid and since on the Museum ships.  They used a hydraulic ram to to push the projectile into the rifling, and loaded bags of powder behind it to suit the intended result.  I also think but don't know in the Navy anything over a 5 inch was breech seated.  I do know the 5 inch guns were cartridge. Coast Guard had some of those on the big Cutters.

As a point of intrest the big army coastal defence guns were near clones of 16 inch naval guns and also breech seated.

We have the Wisconsin here on display and it's a nice tour.

Boats
  
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oldbluelight
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #28 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 10:57pm
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Boats, I hope you aren't referring to Teddy Roosevelt's 'Great White Fleet'. If so, you really are an 'old timer'. Weren't those breech seated naval rounds bore diameter with copper 'driving bands' at groove diameter? I don't have personal experience like you but that is my understanding of their construction and I'm just asking....not challenging.

Oh yeah, a sincere 'Thank You, Sir'  for your service to all of us.
  
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waterman
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Re: breech seating ??
Reply #29 - Nov 7th, 2008 at 12:20am
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Boats,

The 5-inch 38 was also breech seated, but with a mechanical rammer. Think of it as the biggest Borchardt you ever saw.  It was just a super-sized .38-55.

Waterman
  
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