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broken_arrow
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Stupid Newbie Questions
Sep 4th, 2008 at 9:45am
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Hi all,
These are probably stupid questions so please be kind...
What is this "breech seating" that I have seen mentioned a couple of times?
And what are the advantages/disadvantages of doing it?
Thanks,
dave
  

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Jim_Borton
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #1 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 9:52am
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It is were you use a sp. tool called a breach  setter to  push a bullet ahead of the chamber into the rifling about 1/16" to 1/8"! This measurement not set in stone!
  

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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #2 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 9:53am
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It is were you use a sp. tool called a breach  setter to  push a bullet ahead of the chamber into the rifling about 1/16" to 1/8"! This measurement not set in stone!
  

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mes
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #3 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 10:01am
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     Breech seating is the use of a cartridge case usually on the end of a tool to mechanically seat the bullet into the rifling of the barrel. By using this method the bullet is usually seated into the barrel the same for every shot.
     The bullet can be seated so that when the loaded case is inserted behind the bullet the bullet can be anywhere from slightly inside the case neck to any distance in front of the case.  It is usually seated anywhere from 1/32 to 1/4 inch in front of the case.
     The primed cartridge with powder. and sometimes a wad to keep the powder from falling out of the case. is then inserted behind the bullet and the rifle is then fired.
  

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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #4 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 10:06am
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  As Jim mention breech seating is a method of seating the bullet into the rifling ahead of the case. A starting point is usually a 1/16" ahead of the case. I use what I think is a better idea which seems to work very well. I keep seating the bullet into the rifling till half the base band shows rifling marks. The 1/16" seems to cover most cases but I have rifles that need to have the bullet seated a 1/4" or more ahead of the case.

  The advantages of breech seating are two fold depending on whether you're using a new made rifle or an original. Tapered bullets are the usual kind used for this method altho straight sided ones can also be used. By seating the bullet into the rifling you automatically align the bullet with the center line of the bore. Altho modern made rifles have chambers more aligned with the bore they are still a bit off just due to manufacturing methods. With the older original rifles this alignment can be quite a bit off so breech seating was invented(?) by the shooters as a way get around this misalignment.

  With the older guns the improvement in accuracy with breech seated ammo can be very noticeable over fixed ammo. I will say tho that in my limited experience with custom made guns this chamber/bore alignment is so close that fixed ammo will shoot almost, or as well as, breech seated ammo.

PETE
  
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singelshotman
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #5 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 10:19am
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The only stupid newbie questions are the one's that are never asked.My father owned a Sharps-Borchardt, it shot wonderfuly well with breech-seated bullets, it would not shoot beans with fixed ammo.Nuff said.
  
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #6 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 11:33am
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Breech seating takes out the variation of friction of the bullet in the case mouth (which results in variations in standard deviations of muzzle velocity) due to the variations in the pressure of a bullet crimp on the case. Also the careful alignment of the bullet in the rifling eliminates slight inaccuarcies from the bullet twisting somewhat as it jumps over the lead into the muzzle from a bottleneck case. In other words an exact placement of the bullet in proper alignement combined with the removal of the variable friction components affecting the bullet results in a bullet that will be propelled forward with more precision.
  
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #7 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 11:50am
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broken_arrow;
                    Welcome, hope you say with us
              All serious Bench "stool" shooters breechseat their bullets--fixed ammo will not shoot with breechseated bullets--you push this soft lead bullet up ahead of the case and it is lined up with the bore and can do nothing but go straight down the barrel---    leadball
  
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leadball
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #8 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 11:56am
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broken_arrow
                     Please remember, breechsetting WILL NOT work with jacketed bullets--the hard jacket wants to stay where it is seated, causing an obstruction in the barrel which is very bad.   leadball
  
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #9 - Sep 9th, 2008 at 9:29am
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Thanks for the replies.
Now I understand.

How about a couple of follow-up questions...

Is this done only with blackpowder or is it done with smokeless also?

If the bullet is placed ahead of the case mouth, do you get flame-cutting of the bore in the area between the two?

Thanks again,
dave
  

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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #10 - Sep 9th, 2008 at 11:12am
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In the ASSRA matches, most(like 90% or more) shooting is done with smokeless powder and breech seated bullets. There is not a problem with barrel erosion, flame cutting or whatever of the barrel, near the chamber, with these mild loads. There are rifles that have been shot 100,000 times with little to no negative effect.
  
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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #11 - Sep 9th, 2008 at 11:14pm
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Breech-seating probably developed in the formal target shooting games of the German/Swiss Americans as a result of their schuetzen muzzleloading heritage.  Remember that most of this developed before clean-burning smokeless powders became available.  Pushing a bullet down the muzzle "pre-fit" the bullet to the bore and the patch at least partially wiped the bore clean of the fouling from the previous shots.

Early in the schuetzen game when breech-loaders came into play they would still load the bullet from the muzzle and insert a primed and powder filled cartridge case from the breech.  Elaborate and very precision made false muzzles were made for the better target grade rifles for especially this purpose. ( Don't ask my how choke bores and gain twists worked with them---maybe they were a later)  It was part of the tradition and helped with the bore fouling issues.

As smokeless powders came into play and BP residue became less of an issue it was found that muzzle-breech loading, as it was called, was no longer required.   However the pretty much hand made--or at least hand finished--barrels still required very careful matching of bullets to bores and chambers.  The relatively soft bullets could easily be damaged by loading into the case as well as the problems mentioned with neck tension, the bullet to bore jump etc etc.  Using a mechanical seating device to carefully place the bullet into precisely the right position in the barrel was a fairly logical step and it has over the past 50 years or so years become pretty much the hallmark of revived Schuetzen rifle shooting.
However not everyone does it, and even some those who do it most of the time use fixed ammunition on some occasions.  
Some modern shooters keep a small supply of very carefully preloaded fixed ammunition on hand to take fast advantage of specific wind conditions even if it is not quite as precise as a breech-loaded bullet.  
Some offhand shooters use fixed ammo.  I'd guess that their theory is that their natural body movement creates more angle of dispersion than they would gain by adding the extra steps of breech-seating, so why waste the time and effort.

The schuetzen riflemen of the golden age of the sport shot a lot of different kinds of matches in the course of an event and looking at the surviving historical records its kind of hard to tell exactly when they used breech-seating and when they did not.

  

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Re: Stupid Newbie Questions
Reply #12 - Sep 23rd, 2008 at 9:24am
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Thanks guys,
After posting this I bought Randy Wright's new book on loading and shooting schuetzen rifles.... and now the education begins.
Thanks,
dave
  

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