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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info (Read 35127 times)
SSShooter
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #30 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 8:06am
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MartiniBelgian wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 9:08am:
Don't worrr - here on the other side of the pond we have the same issues with US manufacturers - and others too.  Distance and customs kill service - and up the price quite a lot...

That is one reason why I shoot Browning shotguns (the other being that I prefer them). While they may not be made here, Browning is headquartered in the U.S. and parts and service (if you don't mind their quoted 5-week turn-around) is top notch these days. On the plus side, in 40 years of shooting their shotguns have never needed a repair.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Venom725
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #31 - Dec 19th, 2016 at 6:23pm
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I'm new in sharps , i wanted one Pedersoli sharps 1874 hunter version , pistol grip , shotgun butt stock , 30'' octagonal barrel . 45-70 gov't . 

But i wanted to rechambered it in .45-90 or .45-100 . 
Do someone here have try high pressure load in this sharps . 
Some people told the modern sharps are strong like ruger # 1 , but pedersoli answer me to load at 18 000 psi maximum with light bullet , or only use factory ammo of 29 000 psi and less . but also told me the sharps have been tested over 30% of factory ammo pressure without issue . But they can told me to use that pressure . So i look in internet and only find one time a pedersoli sharps blow out and blow hand of the shooter in same time , that happen in competition made each year . So i wanted one long time ago , i always dream to have one , but i wanted something capable of moderne pressure and moderne velocity , hi have before ruger #1 rebarreled with 32'' barrel chamber in .45-100 , and the 500 grain i take the load data of the 458 win mag , and with the 32 inch barrel the 500 gr excape the muzzle at 2400 fps . but s not sharps i sale it . And this 2016 i wanted to have my sharps for 2017
  
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Ol_Deuce
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #32 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:16am
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I shoot a Shiloh.. and Not a problem the heavy loads !
500gr GC  45-70 .Beautiful Rifle Fit and Finish is Perfect
in my eyes! and shoots way better than I can shoot her !!
She has done The Quigley match ! That was 26 years ago!
and she still looks and fires as fine as when it was New!
Great Rifle!!................Ol Deuce
  

Do The Best With What You Got !!!
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #33 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 10:45am
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Venom,

Somebody managed to split a Pedersoli Sharps action apart at the Quigley a couple years ago.  This was with an overload of smokeless powder.  Even with modern alloys, the Sharps is still an antiquated design, with few of the safety features of a modern single shot rifle.  They were designed and built around the ballistics of black powder.  As the cartridges get longer (.45-70 to .45-90 to .45-100), it gets harder to get a safe smokeless load that is as high in velocity than the .45-70 "high-speed" loadings, which is why the old chamberings died out in the smokeless powder era.

A modern Sharps repro will no doubt stand a high pressure proof load or two, but a steady diet of such loads is eventually going to do some damage.  The longer brass cases in the Sharps calibers do not have the thick web at the base that modern brass like the .458 has. If you hot-rod the long case with smokeless powder and it bursts around the base, remember that the end of that firing pin is pointed right at your shooting eye, covered only by a little piece of sheet metal.

We had a writer, back in the 1980's, who liked to go on and on about the wonderful modern steels that the old gun designs were now made of, and the great advances in metallurgy that resulted in brass cases that were so much stronger than in the old days, and the marvelous modern powders with their progressive burning characteristics that allowed high velocities to be reached safely.  He had a modern Winchester 94 barreled with a strong modern steel barrel, chambered it in .32 Special and announced that, using brand new brass cases, by the time he was done with load development, the old girl was going to be on the tail of the 8mm Mauser.

The final chapter of the story was him sitting in tears at the shooting bench, with the breech of his expensive new rifle brazed shut, and smoke coming out of all the wrong holes in the action.  All that modern marvelousness didn't help the old design reach max velocities after all, although they probably kept his face intact.  He at least had the class to document this, and he is still writing, though much more cautious in his reloading now.

If you want a Sharps side hammer, stick with its design limitations.  If you want a Sharps to hot-rod, get a modern Sharps-Borchardt repro, (accepting all risks since you are still going into unknown territory) or, better still, see if you can buy that Ruger back.  Smiley
  
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Venom725
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #34 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 2:33pm
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Forged steel are use for action of the pedersoli i wait to have confirmation of the steel use for barrel . 

I know Shiloh are like Ruger number 1 in term of strenght can take a lot of pressure . To have load starline .45-100 at maximum pressure of around 50 000 cup , i never broke a brass , they have been reloaded a few time without issue . 

The Marlin rifle take 40 000 cup of pressure , and factory made sharps rifle always told me is stronger than a Marlin rifle because of the breach block . So if is stronger they supposed take more pressure than marlin , i know pedersoli have teste rifle at 30% over 29700 cup pressure . so that give a 37 000 cup without issue , Buffalo Bore told me they sell ammo for 20 year now , and Pedersoli Sharps owner use their ammo for long time and not issue have been record for now . Is safe to use in with close to 40 000 cup pressure . 45-90 ,45-100 loaded at this pressure , are awesome and the feeling to have old moderne designs with modern ballistic is exited . i still follow my research to have a clear answer with proof to show me .
  
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OLReliable
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #35 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 3:56pm
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"Somebody managed to split a Pedersoli Sharps action apart at the Quigley a couple years ago.  This was with an overload of smokeless powder." 

A Ballard came apart at The Quigley Shoot a couple of years ago, but I don't remember ever seeing or hearing of that occurring at that event with a Sharps of any manufacture.
  

OLR
wyyyyyyy iiiyyyyyy awwwttta ......
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John Boy
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #36 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 5:50pm
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Quote:
Forged steel are use for action of the pedersoli i wait to have confirmation of the steel use for barrel
.

Source: Dick Trenk, former Pedersoli US Match Director before his death
Pedersoli barrels are machined from a chrome moly alloy having the metalurgical composition called 30Cr Mo4  Uni 7845 which is a patented alloy variation developed by Mauser in the 1930s specially for their new M34 light machinegun which has such a rapid rate of fire. The alloy was designed to prevent or minimize the barrel from "walking" the bullets on the target as the barrel heated up. To my knowledge only Mauser, Sako, Mannlicher and Walther use this expensive alloy which Pedersoli buys.
 
For our action frames ( and other parts such as breech blocks etc.) we use a special alloy which is best suited for the "forging" process we use on ALL our Sharps, Rolling Block, Trapdoor, Colt Lightning and forthcoming HiWall rifles.
This alloy is identified as being 18Cr Mo4. This alloy alows what is called "cementation hardening."  Which gives a hard wear resistant surface of proper depth, while maintaining a non-brittle softer internal molecular structure necessary on such parts which are subject to shock and high stress loadings repeatedly. 
This alloy also allows us to produce very colorful case hardened exterior surfaces so desired in fine guns.  The alloy can also be finished in standard hot blue/black or "coin" color finishes.
 
Smaller parts are made from equally suitable steel alloys and are properly heat treated by means of induction coil methods and oil or water quenched, according to the desired hardness and type of alloy being used.

Pedersoli approves 29.000 psi loadings with BP or
smokeless powders.

This is correct and official for our Sharps, Trapdoor and Rolling
Block models.

All these guns are proof tested at about 33,000 to 35,000 psi using American Federal brand smokeless ammo , at the Italian national Proof House in Gardone Italy.

Properly loaded with correct garde BP you will not exceed allowed safe limits but under certain conditions FFFg powder has been known to exceed the limits a bit.
For the 45 and 50 caliber rifles FFFg has no safe usage.
It burns too fast and makes faster MV speeds but accuracy is down the drain.

The 45-70 and 45-90 work best with FFg, 1.5Fg grain sizes. The 45-110 and 45-120 hold lots of powder and the 45-110 likes 1.5Fg while the 45-120 really should only use Fg.


« Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2016 at 5:58pm by »  
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Mick B
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #37 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 5:54pm
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If Pedersoli  recon that the action is only safe for black powder pressures, why not just take their word for it. To me this all looks like an accident waiting to happen.
Mike.
PS  They say it's not possible to make something idiot proof because idiots are so ingenious.
  
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #38 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 6:00pm
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The Sharps that failed at the Quigley Shoot failed at the chamber area of the rifles barrel. The barrel was bulged from previous misuse and yet the shooter continued to fire the rifle with a improper smokeless powder load that split the barrel and caused the shooter's hand great harm, the action held together. No Sharp's of modern manufacture has failed from published data of a smokeless powder maker.
  
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Ol_Deuce
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #39 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 6:02pm
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Shiloh has a barrel and action  that the barrel had split open
4 to 5''.......the action is as good as a new one ,no damage!
this was caused by a compressed smokeless charge ! Recoil
knocked the shooter out cold! He suffered No Damage!  Shocked

You form your own opinion on this one Roll Eyes ....Ol Deuce
  

Do The Best With What You Got !!!
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John Boy
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #40 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 6:15pm
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PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT
All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ‘commercial’ factory made ammunition by 30 %.
For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:

C.I.P WARNING
Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.
The below mentioned data are compared to the Crusher (CUP) and PSI method.
The equivalent maximum pressure value of the commercial cartridges measured according to the English/American P.S.I. and C.U.P. system is obtained by multiplying the BAR value x 14.5037.
The list below represents the maximum pressure to be developed by a commercial cartridge to be used with our guns, in the various calibers shown .In no case should the cartridges exceed such pressure values. 
Smokeless Powder Cartridges
Caliber------------BAR------CUP-PSI
30-30 Win.--------2800-------40611
30-40 Krag--------2850-------41335
38-55 Win.--------2150-------31182
357 Mag----------3200-------46411
45 Colt-----------1100-------15945
45-70 Govt-------2000-------29007(*)
8x57 JRS----------2900-------42060
9,3x74R-----------3000-------43511 
 
Black Powder Cartridges                     
Caliber------------------BAR------CUP-PSI
38-55 B.P.--------------2000-------29007
40-65 B.P.--------------1723-------25000
45-70 B.P.--------------1723-------25000
45-90 B.P.--------------1723-------25000
45-100,110 B.P.---------1723-------25000
45-120 B.P.-------------1723-------25000
45-70 Light B.P.--------1241-------18000 (**)
50-70, 50-90 Light B.P.-1241-------18000 (**)
50-70, 50-90 B.P.-------1723-------25000 (*)

-------------------------------------------------------------
These calibers with B.P. indicate the use of commercial cartridges cases reloaded with BLACK POWDER only. 
(*) This pressure is allowable for modern made Pedersoli rifles in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, -90, -100, -110, -120, 50-70, and 50-90. It may not be safe with other brands of replica arms and those mfrs. must be consulted for their data. 
(**) Modern made Pedersoli Trapdoor 45-70 rifles are safe to the higher 29007 PSI/CUP pressure.
« Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2016 at 6:22pm by »  
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Venom725
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #41 - Dec 21st, 2016 at 2:06pm
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Pedersoli answer me , but i see someone give the same steel number . but here what they answer me 

The frame is forged and made of 18 CrMo4 and it is the same material used for all the frames of our cartridge rifles.
It is a low carbon steel that enables a cementation and a hardening, such to have a hard surface and a soft "heart".

Barrels' steel ISO Standards 30CrMo4 

So what they same to tell is the action are Ok for lever action load data but not tested for over that . 
The action same to be more stronger than the Marlin one , but without a proof of it , i will not buy sharps rifle except if i find Shiloh sharps but is something almost impossible in canada . Shiloh sharps have been tested for over 70 000 psi without issue , and is egual of a Ruger number 1 or Browning/Winchester b78/1885 action .  So if i wanted something modern , can take high pressure load , better to go with a Browning Modern High wall b78 or 1885 . Because Shiloh sharps are just too rare in canada to try to buy one .
  
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John Boy
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #42 - Dec 21st, 2016 at 2:25pm
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Shiloh sharps have been tested for over 70 000 psi without issue
Sure would like to read the Written Source for this 70,000 psi and what testing lab did the testing.
There are many match shooters using Shiloh's and if they were using reloads at 70,000 psi that would put the bullet in the flat trajectory plane shooting 1000yds.  
Hell, all that would be needed would to bore sight on the 10" center and pull the trigger!
That psi is a tad less more than a 8mm Rem Magnum at 65,000 psi
« Last Edit: Dec 21st, 2016 at 9:28pm by »  
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Venom725
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #43 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 2:47pm
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70 000 psi was the answer shiloh give me . 
I ask to know at what pressure rifle was tested and they answer me ''we tested at about 70 000 psi without issue'' ''our sharps are one of the tougher on the market today'' 

and i ask if it was true is about same strengh then a ruger #1 and they told me ''any of the load use in Ruger #1 , our's sharps can take it without problem''

I have 1000 round of .45-70 gov't loaded for marlin 1895 action , for the most of it is 400 gr @ 1900 fps to 2000 fps , 460 gr 1800 fps - 1900 fps  , 500 gr 1600-1700 fps out of my 18.5'' barrel . So i wanted another rifle can take same ammo without problem , to not injured my self  . 
For what i know the only one can handle that and still look like the old days of west is the Browning/winchester 1885 high wall . I have custom one before in .50-90 sharps smokeless load , 600 gr @ 2300 fps out of 26 inch barrel . 700 gr @ 2100 fps . No signs of pressure , but in the 50-90 sharps those load are about 45 000 cup . so is not too high in pressure .
  
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SchwarzStock
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps opinions & info
Reply #44 - Dec 27th, 2016 at 5:54pm
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LOL, funny this thread has reappeared.

More than 3 years after my posts I still wouldn't give a Pedersoli to an enemy.

SS
  

If your rifle is not in 7.62 and you can't hit what you are aiming at with de-linked machinegun ammo you are a pretender.
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