After I first contacted this forum I did more research and am fascinated about what I've read about John Bodine and the first match against the Irish. It's such an American classic story of the underdog winning against all odds and winning on the last shot. Disney couldn't have made up a better story!!

My question is to you who are history buffs. Why was it so hard to find marksmen to compete against the Irish? 10 years earlier we were at war and I would have thought marksmen would be all over the place. Men who had to live by the rifle and shooting skills from the civil war that, I would think, have produced hundreds of marksmen.

Thoughts?

I'll relate something I learned about more modern Palma (800,900, 1000 yard prone event) shooting from a couple of club members who have represented the US at the International Palma Matches held every 3 years...

I don't know how it relates to the early Creedmoor matches, but it may indeed have been a factor.

The US, historically in Palma, has field excellent and first rate individual marksmen.  Our shooters are as good, or better, than any other countries individual shooters.
Where US Palma Teams have been weaker is in TEAM shooting.   
Ireland, England, New Zeland, and even Australia (other countries involved in the Palma Match), have relatively little difficulty getting their whole team (after selection matches) together 5-6 times in the year or two before the "next" Palma match.   

Not so the US.  The US is a big place, and getting a bunch of team members together in any one place for long enough to really build a good team, with good rapore with coaches, and practice strategies and communication for the Palma Team shooting, is darn difficult.

I can imagine the same thing in the Ireland Vs the United States match, perhaps...
The Irish could practice as a team, build confidence, build off of each others experience, and have seasoned coaches...
The US team (again, pure supposition on my part!), may not have been able to practice together often enough as a TEAM, and had to rely more on each individual team member... which doesn't always work out.

Anyway, it was quite an interesting conversation... whether or not it relates at all to the Creedmoor match, I'll leave that for others.

Paul F.

Given all of this rich history, can anybody voice an opinion or point to any historical information as to why the Germans never really moved to a large degree to more long range shooting? Was it primarily their entrenchment in Scheutzen and Gallery shooting ? I've always wondered given their extremely high per capita level of shooting sports country wide. Even with their output of very high grade guns I cannot remember really ever seeing examples of what we would describe as true long range target guns.

In reality the US team didn't beat the Irish, the Irish beat themselves when JL Milner of that team put a bullseye on the wrong target. This shot was disqualified, which resulted in the Irish losing 934 to 931.
However the best shots fired in this match were by an American, Lt. Henry Fulton, who fired an amzing 171 out of a possible 180, with 36 bullseyes and 9 centers, using his Remington Creedmoor model. 
In fact, of the 3 Rem. shooters and 3 Sharps shooters, all three Remington shooters outshot the Sharps shooters.
The NRA was a little miffed at the manner the Irish challenged the US shooters, as they simply placed an ad in the New York Herald stating they challenged any team in the USA to beat their team. Later on the NRA found out that they did this because they didn't even know the NRA, or any shooting organization existed to properly challenge.
As a side note, the two teams met again in 1875 and 1876 in Dollymount, Ireland and on both occasions the US team soundly beat the Irish without any errors or mistakes.
Vall

Ned Roberts book the "Caplock Rifle" has a good chapter with an excerpt from the New York Herald.  Two members of the American team fired their rolling blocks as muzzleloaders, Fulton being one of them.  I'm sure Milner of the Irish team took a good ribbing when he cross-fired but if you shoot long range very often, crossfires will happen. Especially if its hazy or a lot of smoke is lingering on the line.   Dakin of the American team had many misses and was probably the weakest link.  From the reading, it appears that the American shooters would pair fire and learn from the previous shooters shot.  The Irish didn't.
As far as long range shooters to be found in this country, I think there were many that could have been included.  In "Berdan's Sharpshooters", to qualify, you had to hold under 10 shots under 5" at 200yds.  Many of his best shooters were from Wisconsin which was rich in German and Swiss heritage.  Many enlisting in the Civil War brought their own rifles as heavy as 34 lbs. and had to be carried by mule.  They made some incredible shots during the war.  At the time of the International Match, most were probably back home not even realizing what was going on in New York.  The shooters that made the team were good but it probably came down to convenience, money and being a member of the amateur club.
What amazes me, is how quickly the American team was pulled together and the two companies turning out new rifles that were virtually untested in any match.  Todays LR shooter is constantly trying new bullet designs, barrel twists etc. trying to find the magic load.  Seems that they got it done in just a few months.  Bob

The REAL reason why it was hard to find a team to compete against the Irish: There was not a SINGLE 1000 yard range in the United States. We had many, many really good shots (tried and true) but only at the shorter ranges. We had no long range rifles, no long range competition nor long range competitors. 

Iis is absolutely amazing that a ompetitive team was put together  (AND a range built) in such a short time. UNBELIEVABLE! 

Dale53