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sharps54
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Beginner's battery
Apr 30th, 2008 at 8:33pm
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OK, I have skimmed the posts in this section and most of the rest of this board and now have a question. What is a good "single shot battery" for the beginner on a limited budget? Limited budget is the key here...

I guess this is a two part question, part one being what is the minimum number of rifles you need to maximize your single shot shooting experience. ASSRA, other Schuetzen style matches, NRA small bore, BPCR, benchrest, offhand, etc. I know there isn't one perfect rifle but what is the minimum that would allow me to shoot in the majority of matches?

The second part of the question would be which rifles do you recommend after answering the above question?

I currently have a BSA International Mark I (with iron sights and an extra stock with a "freeland" buttplate), a 577-450 Martini Henry Military Rifle, a Stevens .22 Favorite, another Martini style .22 at my Dad's house that is pretty rough (it would be best as a donor action), a Shiloh 1863 Sporting Rifle, and a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps Carbine. Out of these I think the first is the only one we can consider. I think I can manage most .22 events with the BSA (except for some that have weight restrictions, I can change the buttstock if I have to for NRA matches) but I am without a centerfire at the moment. After reading the posts here I wonder if a T/C Contender isn't the best base for an economic rifle to get started.

I know the standard answer is to buy a CPA and I would love to but it would require selling my Martini-Henry and Sharps, which I want to avoid if possible... 

Anyhow I look forward to your answers, if it matters I live near Fredericksburg, Virginia. 

Editted to add I would greatly prefer to work with black powder if possible but am interested in reading answers recommending that new fangled smokeless stuff in the hope that this thread can help the largest audience.
« Last Edit: Apr 30th, 2008 at 8:39pm by »  
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Brent
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #1 - Apr 30th, 2008 at 8:42pm
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Because you put BPCR in that list, I would say that the match to your Martini .22 would be a .38-50 Rem in a Highwall, a CPA or Ballard action.  The CPA being the cheapest probably.  It will be a decent Schuetzen caliber and a very workable BPCR caliber, it will shoot just about anything or anywhere you want.   

I don't actually own one so perhaps that just shows you how much I know, but for a one all around rifle, it would be hard to beat I think.  It would, however, be very limited to illegal in most Creedmoor style 1000 yds matches- but then that is not on your list either.   

Brent
  
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sharps54
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #2 - Apr 30th, 2008 at 8:49pm
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Brent,
Thanks for the response. I should have mentioned my list of styles isn't all inclusive. I also know that ideally I won't have just one rimfire and one centerfire. Maybe a CPA (or fancy HiWall) for Schuetzen, a Sharps or HiWall of some sort for the BPCR / Creedmore, and the BSA would allow adequate coverage? I guess I could use the BPCR for Schutezen (all two or three matches a year I'll get to  Roll Eyes ) until I can afford a proper Schuetzen rifle...
  
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Brent
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #3 - Apr 30th, 2008 at 8:59pm
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to be honest the actions are really not that important.  The calibers are to some extent.  But you can win with a .45-70 in a Schuetzen match or with a .38-55 in a BPCR match.   

If you were going to have a different rifle for each, a .32-40 might be the most popular Schuetzen caliber.  A .45-70 is easily the most popular BPCR caliber.   

But the action should be what tickles your fancy.

Brent


  
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sharps54
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #4 - Apr 30th, 2008 at 9:08pm
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Brent,
Agreed on the actions, I would think the calibers, sights, and stocks are much more important factors. I should have asked about them in the initial post. Embarrassed
  
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MI-shooter
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #5 - May 1st, 2008 at 12:34pm
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Contenders are fine guns if you want to play with various calibers as a new barrel is fairly cheap. For a target gun, it is really at the bottom of the list. Now they are capable of fine accuracy, they have other traits that do not lend themselves to target work. One, being for benchrest you have to break the action open disturbing the fit to the rest/bags each time. Two, The weight is not sufficient for most people for offhand work. Three, the stock is more of a hunting design than a target design. Now I do like Contenders and can't remember when I have been without one. Currently I have a G2 in 30-30 throated for lead bullets and have a 22LR barrel that is currently being converted to a 297/250 Rook. Anything above a 30-30 case size is pushing it. I had a 45-70 Contender once and after three frame replacements I gave it up.

For rimfire, The BSA International Match rifle is a fine choice. I have an ISU and a Mk III and both are fine guns. For BPCR you have to have an outside hammer so a High Wall, CPA or Ballard can do. Caliber depends on what you like and if you are for or against case forming for some of the older cases. A 45-70 is hard to beat. Good accuracy and power and easy loading. If you plan on alot of Schuetzen shooting a 32-40 is pretty much the most popular. In a CPA, getting a second barrel is no big deal except for cost of course. The Win will be more costly for the take down feature and Ballard is pretty much dedicated to one caliber. 

Not sure this helps but good luck.
  
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boats
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2008 at 3:38pm
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I am pretty near you and practice with my Schuetzens at Cavalier near Montpelier Va often during the week.  If you want to look at and try out a couple of CPA's with 4 barrels between them you can shoot mine sometime.  With this set up I can shoot BPCS with the 38/55 barrel. Rim and center fire 32/40 offhand Schuetzen . & Black powder Schuetzen with the 38/55 barrel switching off the butt stock.   I have a bench rest 32/40 barrel for one of the actions but never shoot it.  There is a real economy in using the same action sights and scope for different matches.  

For economy Schuetzens though I have long thought T/C's are the way to go, particularly if you use aftermarket barrels like Bulberrys. Not the best for bench as has been said but capable of very good scores offhand. One regularly does well bench at Thurmont Md though.  22 and 32 Miller are possible with the same action and stock. and you only need one scope. I would stock it like a modern Silhouette rifle looking for about 9 lbs finish weight.

Next matches near you are Thurmont MD just below Gettysburg end of May and Gretna Va end of June. You ought to visit and look at the equipment used.

Boats
  
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Bruce P
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #7 - May 1st, 2008 at 4:37pm
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Well, 

As long as you are soliciting opinions. I think one could narrow things down to 2 rifles and you would be competitive in most of the matches. My choices would be those below.

1. Shiloh Sharps #1 Sporter, 30" heavyweight octagon barrel. Long Range MVA Buffalo Soule sight. .45-70 caliber. Finished to make NRA weight specs, and match the depth of your wallet.

2. CPA Stevens 44 1/2 with type 52 stock, chambered for .32-40 cal. #4 weight barrel 28" long with an extra barrel chambered for .22 LR also 28 " long #4 weight. MVA sights.

If I could only have two those would be the ones.

Bruce
  
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sharps54
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #8 - May 1st, 2008 at 8:35pm
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Thanks for all the responses so far, keep them coming! I am very interested in seeing what different shooters think a new comer should be looking for to "maximize" his/her bang for the buck. I understand that buying cheap guns is more expensive in the long run but there ought to be a way to do this sport without spending thousands on each rifle.

Boats, you have a PM inbound. I have contacted Green Frog and will be at his next match in June. Unfortunately I don't think I can make any of the matches in Thurmont this year as they all conflict with my schedule.
  
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boats
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #9 - May 1st, 2008 at 9:14pm
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Cost is a barrier to entry that's for sure. It's the primary deterrent to this sport.

I first got started with BPCS and the CPA in 38/55 but did not like the 3/4 prone aspect of that match and the fact it's a two man competition, without a good spotter you are handicapped. 

Changed it's butt stock to a Stevens 52 and switched to Schuetzen which compliments my modern rifle Silhouette shooting.  Then latter added another CPA with the Pope style high comb offhand stock in 32/40 & 22 LR.  Finally a bench rest dedicated # 5 barrel for the 52 stocked action.  I always say the rifles did not cost anything since I sold off assorted other guns to pay the bill. Did not do all of this on the same day. Has been a 15 year progression.

Keeping a rifle for BPCS and Black Powder Cartridge target doubles the expense since generally they don't shoot Schuetzen well and Schuetzens can't shoot there matches either.  Closest you can come is changing butt stocks on a 38/55 CPA but it's less than a ideal compromise.

I think I would see how committed you are to Schuetzen first with a single rifle and add barrels or if not  T/C's or CPA's three rifles that can switch between the three usual Schuetzen cartridges. .22 lr 32/40 and if using Black powder 38/55.   You can add as you go. In most matches around here you don't have to have Iron sights or Black powder out West it's another matter. One scope can do it all but tell you the truth I use 3 and enjoy using Irons at times.  My outfit is strictly traditional but competitive as well.

A Contender can shoot .22 Lr and one of the 32 cartridges using one scope for a fraction of the cost of getting traditional Schuetzens together. If competition is your objective, not staying traditional that may be the way to go. In a 9 lb rifle they can shoot as well as anything out there. Modern Silhouette is about 9 lbs sporter class and 10 Silhouette class and the best offhand work shot today is in Silhouette. While we like heavy guns Those rifles  would be very competitive in any offhand Schuetzen match. I don't shoot Schuetzen with mine but do campaign it Small bore Silhouette and practice on the ASSRA paper target. Scores are no different than my 14 lb hook butt plate palm rest high comb CPA. Have also shot my Schuetzen informally in Small bore Silhouette matches and same thing about the same knock down rate as the light gun.

Boats
« Last Edit: May 1st, 2008 at 9:22pm by boats »  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #10 - May 1st, 2008 at 10:01pm
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Winkdon't give up on the TC.  ol'rascable managed to win the Mini-hudson last weekend at EG with a custom barrelled TC with a "bloop tube" to make length.

of course its a whole lot more than just the gun---the shooter counts for something.

'sides I think that in that nasty crosswind his TC had a lot less "sail area" to catch the wind than my swss martini.   LOL

actually Pat shoots it a lot in his local 22 rf offhand matches so he really knows the gun and how to shoot it-------but it was a Contender. Roll Eyes



for a starter setup,  I really think a multibarrel CPA would be hard to beat, unless you are hung up on some other specific action. It'll do everything from 22 rf to BPCR,  switch stocks from offhand to prone to benchrest, factory DST if you like.  As I recall they even make it in a heat treated action that will handle modern highpower loads for hunting if you are willing to give up the pretty colors
« Last Edit: May 1st, 2008 at 10:06pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #11 - May 1st, 2008 at 11:27pm
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I sorta agree with Bruce if you can afford 2 rifles. I don't know if a Shilo is a better choice then a Ballard or Hiwall for BPCR though. Like the others I also agree that the CPA is a good choice since you can shoot in the traditonal class in schuetzen and have multi barrels and even different stocks for BPCR. Another option would be to find a Stevens 44 1/2, although for BPCR you would be limited to .38-55 due to its barrel shank size and hammer clearance problem. Well, having thunk on it as I wrote, I personally would get an original Stevens 44 1/2 with .32-40 barrel for Schuetzen and either an original or maybe repro. Highwall or Repro. Ballard in .45-70 for your BPCR and Long Range shooting. Once you get "the bug" you won't be happy with just one or two rifles for long.
  
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sharps54
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #12 - May 2nd, 2008 at 8:16am
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Well I know in my case I will do my best while shooting but my purpose in shooting is to have fun, I could care less if I win. That is especially true now as I am starting out. I want to get together with like minded folks, shoot neat rifles, and then socialize after the match. If I could afford it I would have a traditional outfit with all the bells and whistles and probably even play with muzzle loading the bullets just to see how they did it "back in the day." Someday I will get to that point but I have to be realistic while I am starting out.

Right now I am not in the financial position to buy many new (or used) rifles without selling some of my exisiting weapons. That leads in to my question about how to maximize my shooting with the least number of rifles. I guess I just want to have a couple rifles that will be legal to shoot the different matches I can drive to, if I am not really competitive right now that's OK. I would rather go to a match and have fun but not be competitive then sit at home for five years not shooting because I am saving up to buy the equipment to be competitive. If that means I have to compromise and buy a rifle that isn't great for Schuetzen but still legal for BPCR I am willing to go that route.

Editted to add, it seems the BPCR competition and the NRA competitions have much stricter equipment rules then the ASSRA and Schutezen matches which is why I am looking for ideas on rifles legal to shoot those matches but still somewhat suitable for Schuetzen style matches. That said, the Contender set up may end up cheap enough to serve as a stand alone Schuetzen set up...
  
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #13 - May 2nd, 2008 at 10:57am
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Sharps54, I am going to depart just a bit from the others on this thread so far and say that early on you will need a .22 single shot with good irons and scope both.  This will permit you to shoot in a variety of matches.  While my low-walls are a perennial and sentimental favorite, I think Martinis are hard to beat on a bang-for-the-buck basis.   Cheesy

Second, I would look at a .38-55 in some configuration that could be used for both Schuetzen and BPCS... this could be accomplished with a special sporter style high-wall with both the crescent butt plate and the interchangeable small swiss.  I personally would want DSTs, but that is your call.  If I could afford/justify 3 rifles, I would "split" this second choice into a lighter recoiling .32 of some sort and an over-.40.  I went with a dedicated schuetzen high-wall in .32-40 and a BPCS high-wall in .45-70.  This is where the CPA or a take-down high-wall could come in since you could put both calibers on a single receiver.   Smiley

If you want to stay with BP loads only, an original or modern repro Maynard would be a possibility here as well, since they were world beaters as long as they were being made and factory supported with parts and barrels as needed.  I could see a single Model 1882 breech piece (receiver and stock) with a .32-35 barrel for schuetzen and a .40-60 or .40-70 barrel for BPCS.   Cool

We can have a great bench session after the shooting is over at the June CSV match at Brushy Mtn.  Just one more reason to absolutely make sure you are there!  Wink

Froggie
  
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Brent
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Re: Beginner's battery
Reply #14 - May 2nd, 2008 at 11:05am
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Frog, I did not realize there as such a thing as a repro Meynard?  Who makes it and do they have a website?  Ive never thought of them as particularly accurate rifles.  Those I have seen are light, unbalanced and no threat to win. That said, I have seen very few and know little about them.

Brent
  
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