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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Rebounding Hammers (Read 10786 times)
Tentman
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Rebounding Hammers
Apr 5th, 2008 at 9:16pm
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Hello Guys

What (if any) are the drawbacks with rebounding hammers (compared with  mechanical retraction of the firing pin), and is there an optimal design for a rebounding hammer for modern cartridges ?? 

I have in mind the type used by De Haas in his "Chicopee" rifles.

Cheers - Foster
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #1 - Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:08pm
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As I understand it, you are somewhat limited in the pressure of the cartridge you can use with a rebounding hammer.  The hammer doesn't hold the firing pin in the primer as the cartridge goes off, allowing high pressure loadings to force the part of the primer under the firing pin back into the firing pin channel.  With a small firing pin, you can go slightly higher in pressure than with a larger one.  Don't know what the upper limit would be.
  
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Tentman
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #2 - Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:13pm
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That was my understanding too (based I think on reading De Haas) but when you start to look at a few rifles there are a few (particularly break actions, chambered in 30-06 and that class) that do use rebounding hammers - so how do they do it ??
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #3 - Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:56pm
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greetings,

take a look at some of tne modern bolt actions in the super duper magnum calibers. they seem to do quite well with a rebounding firing pin.

..ttfn..grampa..
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #4 - Apr 6th, 2008 at 9:48am
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I have never had anything but trouble from rebounding hammers and firing pins, they seldom work properly for me. Have experienced many blown primers from rebounding hammers in 223s and similar, and now I won't use them unless there's simply no alternative.

So far, I've always been able to find or fabricate an alternative.

Bolt action rifles with rebounding firing pins? I'm not familiar with them. However I AM familiar with non-rebounding titanium strikers used in M70s, 700s and similar.

The lightweight titanium striker requires a stronger mainspring in order to prevent blown primers, and it doesn't even rebound! So, if a supported primer will blow out, what about an unsupported one?

If you simply have to have a rebounding hammer (?!?) then by all means use a very small striker tip, no more than 0.040" diameter IMO.
Good luck, Joe
  
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Shooter_1
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #5 - Apr 6th, 2008 at 1:31pm
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Joe,
I know that the Ruger # 1 does not have a rebounding hammer, but does it have a rebounding firing pin, I know that it has a firing pin rebound spring but not sure how it works. I've shot a lot of them and never had a problem with blown primers, could Ruger have solved this problem. ?
  Shooter
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #6 - Apr 6th, 2008 at 4:47pm
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The Rem. Hepburn uses a rebounding hammer, but I believe it doesn't rebound until the trigger is released. Hepburns have been chambered to some pretty high pressure calibers over the years. deHaas spoke quite highly of the #3's rebounding mechanism.
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #7 - Apr 6th, 2008 at 5:17pm
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I realize lots of rebounding hammers are out there and are working fine, I'm merely relating my own experiences. Please see Ackley's comments re rebounding firing pins in one of Landis' books, he didn't like 'em at all.

And please don't let's get stsrted on Hepburns!

Rebounding hammers and firing pins IMO are kinda like double-action-only semiautomatic pistols: a questionable solution to a nonexistent  problem. But that's JMO.
Regards, Joe
  
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westerner
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #8 - Apr 6th, 2008 at 6:13pm
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Quote:
I realize lots of rebounding hammers are out there and are working fine, I'm merely relating my own experiences. Please see Ackley's comments re rebounding firing pins in one of Landis' books, he didn't like 'em at all.

And please don't let's get stsrted on Hepburns!

Rebounding hammers and firing pins IMO are kinda like double-action-only semiautomatic pistols: a questionable solution to a nonexistent  problem. But that's JMO.
Regards, Joe


Joe, it's pretty hard not to bring the Hepburn up since it has a rebounding hammer and a spring loaded firing pin. 

The only trouble I've had is sticking firing pins in one rifle. The spring has lost some of its temper I suppoze.   Smiley   


                                                           Joe.



  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #9 - Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:27pm
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All the high power bolt actions I am familiar with keep the firing pin forward under spring pressure until the bolt is lifted and the cocking cam starts the firing pin back.  Or they keep it forward until the sear catches and the forward motion of the bolt recocks the action.

Dunno how the NEF does it--maybe the backward travel of the pin is only enough to bring the tip flush with the standing breech.  That and a small diameter might work with the higher pressure cartridges.

Rebounding hammers are great on shotgun actions, where the pressures are low, and, of course, more convenient than manual cocking on black powder rifles.  For varmint rifle use, De Haas advocated grinding the rebound part of the Hepburn mainspring off to let the hammer nose stay forward, and manually half-cocking the hammer before opening the breech.  Sounds like way more trouble than it's worth, and anyway, Hepburns are much cooler in the original calibers.  There was a picture of a varmintized one, tricked up with a skinny round barrel, a scope and a California-style Monte Carlo stock on the cover of a Rifle Magazine about 25 years ago that gave me nightmares for months. Wink
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #10 - Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:38pm
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Joe, let's just say that, although the Hepburn is plenty strong, it's not really my idea of a well-designed action. So citing the Hepburn as a positive example worthy of emulation is, for me, somewhat faint praise indeed. Now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with Hepburns if you happen to like 'em, it's just that I happen to like some other ones a lot better.

But this discussion isn't about Hepburns, it's about rebounding hammers. Apparently some folks feel a need for them in at least some applications but so far I personally have had mainly negative experiences including a number of blown primers with high-pressure modern cartridges. This includes factory 5.56 Nato in an early Armalite AR-18 as well as handloads in other rifles. So, I personally tend to avoid any rebounding hammers/strikers with any smokeless loads except shotguns. Of course YMMV (BG).
Regards, Joe
  
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KWK
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #11 - Apr 7th, 2008 at 7:45am
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Consider a High Wall. It has a few pounds of hammer force on the primer when down. Divide this by the area of primer strike and how many psi of support do you get? Let's say there is 5 lb of force on the firing pin at rest and the diameter of the firing pin support is about 1/32", so we have about 7000 psi. 

One effect not easy to quantify is how much the firing pin nose might be squeezed. The dimple in the primer is dome shaped and under pressure it will push in on the firing pin from all sides. Any radial thrust will be born through the pin; the rearward component must be carried by the spring. 

Actually, the dimple is a dome, and it's of work hardened brass. As such, it should carry a fair amount of the pressure directly into the breech face surrounding the firing pin hole.

Sorry, I have no answers here, just a few thoughts.

« Last Edit: Apr 11th, 2008 at 12:13pm by KWK »  

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Varminteer
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #12 - Apr 9th, 2008 at 1:09am
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I had a Riedl falling block with a "rebounding hammer".  I think it is the best example of the benefits of a rebounding hammer and firing pin.  It was in .243win.  A positive about rebounding is in most cases you have less parts in the action.  You don't need to design a mechanism to push back the hammer.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #13 - Apr 9th, 2008 at 1:24pm
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Varminteer, you just made the best argument for a striker action - no stinkin' hammer needed...
  
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hst
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Re: Rebounding Hammers
Reply #14 - Apr 9th, 2008 at 2:02pm
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Mr. Martini:

Now you know that is a specious argument. Nice try though... 


Glenn
  
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