Page Index Toggle Pages: [1]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Barrel Tuners? (Read 33730 times)
Irascible
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 279
Location: Pleasant Valley
Joined: Apr 6th, 2007
Barrel Tuners?
Mar 25th, 2008 at 11:47am
Print Post  
I was wondering if barrel tuners were allowed in ASSRA competition? YES, it does go ajainst the grain of tradition, just wondering!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MI-shooter
Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 698
Location: SE Michigan
Joined: Apr 18th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #1 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 12:15pm
Print Post  
Currently, ASSRA Schuetzenmeister has ruled that they are not legal in ASSRA events. However, the Rules Committee is reviewing that issue amongst others so it may or may not change in the near future, depending on their recommendations to the BoD.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #2 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 1:04pm
Print Post  
Irascible wrote on Mar 25th, 2008 at 11:47am:
I was wondering if barrel tuners were allowed in ASSRA competition? YES, it does go ajainst the grain of tradition, just wondering!


A cursory review of the history and details of all the different accuracy aids tried and used regularly by the old Schuetzen crowd will soon reveal that there's nothing particularly new here. AAMOF some of the old Journal cover photos have some pretty wild-looking contraptions being used in the old shoulder-to-shoulder matches, witness the loooooong-barreled water-pipe Schuetzen rifle!
Regards, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #3 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 3:56pm
Print Post  
As the particular person who brought that idea up on here a coupla years ago, and got his butt burned for it...... The answer right now is NO!!  Smiley

  If they do become allowed in the future I'm not sure they will help a whole lot with the rifles we use. Gun design is working against us.

  Some people seem to have the idea that a Tuner will turn bad ammo into good ammo. Far from it.

  What a Tuner does is take good ammo and "smooth" out the accuracy level from lot to lot which is the big bug-a-boo of .22 ammo. Of course "bad" ammo will be improved, but there's no way you can take 2" ammo and make it shoot into 1".  I know, I've had lots that shot like a house afire, and the very next lot was so-so. Even with the high priced stuff.

  As I get the picture even when made on a dedicated machine the quality cycles like a wave graph. So as the machine goes along the accuracy potential rises and falls. Part of the price you pay is a constant testing on the cartridges coming off that machine, and when the accuracy level drops off then that ammo is shunted to one side until the level returns to spec.'s. The first thing that comes to mind is what is the acceptable accuracy spread, how often do they test, and how many sub standard rounds get thru before they shunt the cartridges off. From descriptions I've read those machines spit out ammo like a stream of water.

  This is supposedly where the Tuner comes in.

  A while back Precision Shooting reported that some experimenting is going on now with the jacketed bench shooters to see if there's any benefit for them.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #4 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 4:32pm
Print Post  
MI-shooter wrote on Mar 25th, 2008 at 12:15pm:
Currently, ASSRA Schuetzenmeister has ruled that they are not legal in ASSRA events. However, the Rules Committee is reviewing that issue amongst others so it may or may not change in the near future, depending on their recommendations to the BoD.


I guess I missing something here, ASSRA currently has a rule book, isn't  it the Schuetzenmeister job to enforce the rules as they are written, or are they allowed to make up new rules as the matches are fired, if allowed to make up there own rules how is that fair for guys shooting in different parts of the country to shoot against others if the rules are not the same or standard for all shooters ?. How are records set or kept if the rules are allowed to be changed at the will of a Match Director or Schuetzenmeister ?. I have a tuner and they work very well, now if the rules are changed to allowed tuners what happens to all the records that were set without them, or are the old records retired and new records started.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jim_Borton
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 449
Location: Tipp City
Joined: Apr 9th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #5 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 4:57pm
Print Post  
Mishooters word are not right!!! Angry The Schuetzenmeister had nothing to do with that ruling the BOD made! All I had was one vote! The BOD ruled them to be NOT LEGAL in ASSRA!!!!
  

Hugs & Kisses
ASSRA life
NRA life
NMLRA life
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #6 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 6:44pm
Print Post  
Jim_Borton wrote on Mar 25th, 2008 at 4:57pm:
Mishooters word are not right!!! Angry The Schuetzenmeister had nothing to do with that ruling the BOD made! All I had was one vote! The BOD ruled them to be NOT LEGAL in ASSRA!!!!



I don't have a problem with them being LEGAL or NOT LEGAL, I'll shoot with or without one, but I cant find anything in the rule book about tuners being on a barrel as an attachment, or as a permanent part of a barrel. 

About the only thing I found was rulings on the diameter and the length of the barrel. It's real simple for me, go by the rule book that was sent to me not long ago. When all the members are notified that the rules have been changed take it from there. 

Jim, you say that the BoD ruled them to be NOT LEGAL in ASSRA, does that mean that at one time there were being used, do you know when this rule will take affect, have any records been set with a tuner being used, and if a record has been set with a tuner being used what happens to that record ?.
   Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
irish66
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 543
Location: newbraunfels
Joined: Apr 7th, 2007
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #7 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 7:04pm
Print Post  
gents,
I was not around in the late 1800's or early 1900's. admittedly  and anti cant block can help tune a barrel, also so can a barrel band as a local gunsmith klause used on our rest guns.
how ever if you want to use barrel tuners go shoot copper in a bolt gun or a gas gun they do not belong on single shots.
IRISH
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #8 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 8:00pm
Print Post  
irish66 wrote on Mar 25th, 2008 at 7:04pm:
gents,
I was not around in the late 1800's or early 1900's. admittedly  and anti cant block can help tune a barrel, also so can a barrel band as a local gunsmith klause used on our rest guns.
how ever if you want to use barrel tuners go shoot copper in a bolt gun or a gas gun they do not belong on single shots.
IRISH



Sorry Irish,
I'm having a hard time reading your post, but I don't really see what the big deal is with using a tuner, if a new rule comes out saying they are not allowed of course I'll take it off, but I thought the idea was to make the rifle as accurate as possible. 

Why would you say they do not belong on single shots, if I didn't tell you I was using one how would you know, how would a "no tuner" rule be enforced. 

I always go by the rules as written but a rule like this has to be done on the honor system as a Schuetzenmeister would not have the time to check each and every gun on the line.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rimfire
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #9 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 8:07pm
Print Post  
sleds or Pope style rests are legal and they cand be used to tune a barrel - but they are traditional - just an opinion and observation for what they are worth - which probable is not much - u all have a great day now - the rimfire - cdpersons
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 11904
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #10 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 8:40pm
Print Post  
I think that the Schutzenmeister should have a big hacksaw. When he goes down the line and catch's someone using a tuner he should cut the barrel off just back of the tuner and throw it as far as he can.  

I just dont like those darn tuners. When I see one it makes me so mad I could chew nails and spit. I just hate um. They're no good. They look bad. They go against everything I stand for. They should be abolished from the planet.  They should be melted down and made into a rocket ship and launched into space pointed at the sun where they will burn in hell forever.  The word tuner should be against the law to say. The word tuner should be removed from all books , signs , billboards. Anyone who ever used one should be require'd to go through electroshock therapy to have the memory of it removed from there brain forever. If shock theropy doesnt work the offender should be given a free ticket for a rocket ship ride.  

I hate those tuners.  Angry


                                                                    Joe.



« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2008 at 10:32pm by westerner »  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #11 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 8:54pm
Print Post  

I take it you don't like tuners, but did you ever try one.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #12 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 9:00pm
Print Post  
they are sounding better and better to me all the time....Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bnice
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1919
Location: Iowa
Joined: Nov 30th, 2006
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #13 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 10:20pm
Print Post  
as ussual the 2 sides come forward. I would put every dollar I have on that Pope, Rowland, etc. would use a tuner if they new it would improve there accuracy. Again one side anything that isn't a straight Ballard, Stevens, etc. is a sin. You guys a technology biggots. Oh by the way are stryker actions on a Ballard against the rules to? Short scopes? Coil spring ballards (sneaky rascals)? Thank goodness this forum is ussually only a small few of the actual shooters members. Hey there is a Idea, how about a poll of the membership what should be allowed?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #14 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 11:54pm
Print Post  
Are you guys saying that the officials of this "Non-Profit Corporation" called ASSRA do not allow the dues paying Shooters to express there opinion as to how the rules that they shoot by are set up, and that we can not vote on important decisions that affect the Corporation ?. Your kiddin, right.

I know I probably ask way, way,  to many of questions but it's because I'm a new guy to this association and the questions I ask are what I think are important, at least to me they are, and answers would be nice.

  I'm still waiting for an answer on the 22 Postal Match as to it being the any sight match, # 3.06 on page 30 of the rule book. A simple Yes or No would have been nice and would have taken only about 30 seconds to do, if that long, but it just seems like it got overlooked or ignored, not a good way to influence and keep members.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
singleshotom
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 371
Location: tofield AB. Canada
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #15 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 1:04am
Print Post  
I have one question on this subject, if tuners are not permitted at a shoot! Is a back bored muzzle on a gun permitted?
Just asking for an interpretation or limits of allowed practices.
Thnx Tom
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 11904
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #16 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 1:52am
Print Post  
What is a back bored muzzle? And what does it do Tom?

I never saw anything in the rule book about back bored muzzles. So it must be legal.  Or maybe its one of them dont ask dont tell type things.



                                                             Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KAF
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #17 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 6:34am
Print Post  
Yanno, I have NEVER had a suggestion for any rules change or anything from a Member in Good standing of the ASSRA, for any kind of discussion at a annual membership meeting.  Sure seems to be all kinds of suggestions on line though.

As written in  the By laws all voting, except changes to the by laws are voted on at the annual meeting at Beeson Range in May during the spring shoot.

Why would there be anybody on the board that never has shown any interest in the assoc or the people.  Sounds odd to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rimfire
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #18 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 6:38am
Print Post  
back bored barrels are legal - the rimfire - cdpersons
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #19 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 7:14am
Print Post  
A back bored muzzle is simply a barrel that has normal bore/groove dimensions for, say, the first 17" of the barrel and then some larger diameter bore for the remaining distance to the muzzle.  It acts something like a bloop tube giving one the balance and sight radius of a long barrel but the bore-residence time of a short barrel.   

They are historically traditional and thus legal.  Or at least, they were legal.  Who the heck knows what the new rules say?  Bloop tubes are/were not legal.   

Brent


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DonH
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #20 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 8:06am
Print Post  
westerner wrote on Mar 25th, 2008 at 8:40pm:
I think that the Schutzenmeister should have a big hacksaw. When he goes down the line and catch's someone using a tuner he should cut the barrel off just back of the tuner and throw it as far as he can.  

Joe.


I assume this was said in jest. If a tuner or anything else not allowed by written rules is found in use during a match, at the very least that shooter should be disqualified unless or until a rifle deemed to be legal replaces the disallowed one. I am not sure that is in writing as pertains ASSRA but any legitimate organized competition I know of has some such procedure. I do believe there is precedence, in cases of blatant cheating in the past at ASSRA annual shoots, for cheaters being asked to vacate the premises.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KAF
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #21 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 8:44am
Print Post  
Read the By Laws. ANY member  should know them and the rules in print, so they have a clue what they are talking about.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #22 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 8:56am
Print Post  
This is an point of great confusion. The question of tuners has come up in the past and is being debated by the rules committee. The real question is what constitutes a tuner? We all know what a real tuner is, but what about a bobsled or a blooptube or lead weight taped to the barrel? The question is not as easy as one might initially think. When the rule book was written tuners didn't exist. Committees move in slow motion that is the nature of the beast. That is not a bad thing as it weeds out the passion of the moment and tends tward more sober thought. 
To clear up the situation here is the way I understand the answer: Tuners are not legal at this time, however bobsleds, blooptubes and weights attached to the barrel are. It comes down to a question of "In the spirit of the match". 
If the decision were mine to make this would be how I would word it. All atachments to a barrel must be non adjustiable, extentions ,or additions to the barrel must be screwed to a stop or otherwise tightly fastened to the barrel.
One more thought If you want to use every new geegaw that comes down the pike chooseing an organisation that was created to study and shoot rifles from the middle to the end of the nineteenth century may not have been a wise choice. Whats next do we have to ban steroids?

40 Rod 

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DonH
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #23 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 9:05am
Print Post  
When we talk of tuners here I assume we are talking about a separate piece or unit, adjustable, which is attached to the barrel at the muzzle for the purpose effecting such  changes to barrel harmonics as to aid accuracy.

Mr. Bill Calfee, who probably knows as much or more than anyone on the subject of tuners, has said that any weight hung on the muzzle of a rifle barrel is in effect a "tuner" as it will to some degree dampen vibrations. According to his thinking ( and he has stated such) a random length of pipe hung on the muzzle is going to do to some degree what a tuner does. A tuner adds weight, but more importantly, allows the shooter to determine how far the max. effect of that weight is loacated ahead of the vibration node of the barrel. One can "tune" a piece of pipe to alter a barrels harmonics with a given ammunition by experimanting with the length of the pipe until the "sweet spot" is found.
My understanding of a "bloop tube" is to mount an extension to the barrel to allow the front sight to be mounted to it, extending sight radius. If that  defines a bloop tube ( and I it is a pretty univesal definition) then a tube added to a scoped rifle is not by definition a "bloop tube". If a bloop tube is legal and a tuner is not then whether a shooter has "tuned" his bloop tube before mounting the sight to it presents a gray area. Except for this last instance, you guyds know the difference.

ARTICLE VI, Section1.0 of the ASSRA Rule Book states, "Proposed changes to these rules shall be submitted in writing to the Vice-President who will then send copies to members of the Match committee. If approved by the committee, the proposed changesshall then be submitted to the Board of Directors and if approved, they shall be accepted as revisions to these match rules. The revised rules will be published in the Journal."There you have it. There is a procedure for propposed changes to match rules so if you all really want a change, put it in writing to the VP. The more letters written, the more attention must be given to  proposals. Be aware though that (to my understanding) association membership will be required fo your input to count; forum membership will not qualify you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #24 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 9:44am
Print Post  
40_Rod wrote on Mar 26th, 2008 at 8:56am:
One more thought If you want to use every new geegaw that comes down the pike chooseing an organisation that was created to study and shoot rifles from the middle to the end of the nineteenth century may not have been a wise choice. Whats next do we have to ban steroids?
40 Rod 


What about these new-fangled shorter scopes, with those modern internal adjustments even? Certainly not 'traditional', are they? And how about the titanium parts that are appearing now? And what about the new rifles and actions, they sure didn't exist back then! And the dreaded fiberglass bedding/accurizing compounds, oh my God!

And the new wind meters folks are using, and on & on ad infinitum.

Sure the tuners may benefit the benchrest shooters but I guarantee that no stinkin' tuner will make a dime's worth of difference in the offhand scores at 200 yds.

Unless, of course, the INclusion of tuners happens to attract more shooters who might be of a somewhat higher skill level than the current crop...

The central point is that all things evolve, and a certain amount of change is natural and inevitable in any pursuit. If the ASSRA tries too hard to maintain some artificial standard of 'traditional' then we are doomed to the same fate as our predecessors, the crossbow Schuetzen shooters of central Europe. Where are they now? Why, they are us! The 'traditional' Schuetzen crossbow evolved into the firearm, and the King targets and popinjays evolved into our 25-ring target. and the (now very, very, very few) crossbow competitions are only symbolic these days.

Why? Because folks expect improvement and won't rest until their results show it, and this means incorporating new approaches to old problems. An organization that wants to grow (DOES the BoD want growth?) should be responsive to its membership's wishes, to make the environment more congenial for more folks.

Yes, we have to strike a balance between popularity and tradition. Is our focus more on the rifles or more on the competition? And is the focus more on what WAS, or more on what SHOULD BE?

Just seems kinda funny to me that we ban tuners but permit internal-adjustment scopes and striker conversions. Go figure.
Regards, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #25 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 10:04am
Print Post  
As was stated in an earlier message..... "if they'd of had it back then they'd of used it"..... is an argument that's been going on for years. The Rendezvous people in the NMLRA, & NCOWS, run into this all the time from people who say the same thing.

  What has to be done is to decide what your goals are. If you're shooting the NRA competitions all the modern gadgets you can think of are being used. What the ASSRA, and others, have decided is that they want to keep things as they were during a certain time frame.

  If the ASSRA allows "anything goes" then it's not the ASSRA. Those who want to suggest changes should send them in. According to Keith not many, if any, do. Sounds like a bunch of complaining just for the sake of seeing your name in print on here. If you were serious you'd send your ideas in where it'll do some good. No one on here can change things by themselves.

  As for those ideas that everyone with half an oz. of common sense would know will never bee adopted, why are they even brought up here other than to "stir the pot".

  Come on guys! Get real. We've argued this so many times that it's really getting boring. None of them will be acted on unless you go thru the proper channels. It's that way with any organization, so why should it be different with the ASSRA.

  Don't get me wrong..... I don't especially like the way things have to be done either, but we have to live with it until enuf people decide they'll go to EG and change things.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #26 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 10:12am
Print Post  
Joe
Point taken. I personally couldn't hold my head up if I showed up with an internal adjustable scope on my CPA, But I understand that there arn't enough to go around. Its finding a ballance that is the tricky part and that is why it is taking so long to debate the point. Where is the point where we lose our identity? Is it tuners, or jacketed bullets, bolt action rifles? We have to have some rules otherwise its just anarchy. 

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paul_Skvorc
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #27 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 12:04pm
Print Post  
If, as a newby here at this forum, and a novice singleshot rifleman, and NOT currently a member of ASSRA, I can express an opinion, then I would say that J.D. Steele's and 40_Rod's most recent comments summarize the issue. Which I would submit has precious little to do with "barrel tuners" and a great deal to do with "who" ASSRA is and "what" ASSRA wants to accomplish or preserve.

As has been pointed out above, other 'historical' organizations have wrestled with "true" and "genuine" and "in the spirit of" and "new-fangled", and ..... Well, you get the picture. Larger organizations, like the NRA, that recognize the unquanitfiable value of recognizing historically important eras, have dealt with these conflicts by broadening the options available to their members that allow a little of "to each his own".

An example with which I have some experience is damascus barreled SxS shotgun competitions. After one gets past the ignorance of "you can't shot damascus barreled waepons" you find that there are damascus-barreled ONLY competitions throughout the nation. The constraints on those competitions are moderately stiff, with the stated intention of maintaining the 'spirit' of the era of damascus barreled shotguns. There is no "confusion" about 'advancing the art' of damascus barrel technology. There is a point to the competitions, and it's not who can shoot the most birds. It is the gathering and associated comraderie of like-minded folks, with a competition thrown in so we don't all stand around shuffling our feet looking for something new to talk about regarding a device that's been out of manufacture for 75 years or more.

On the other hand, there are no restictions that keep a damascus barreled shotgun from competing in the "open", "modern", throw every new gadget you can at it" competitions.

Maybe, and I emphasize that I said MAYBE, the ASSRA could have different kinds of competitions, while still maintaining their core focus - 19th centuryesque gatherings of like-minded folks. "Advancing the art" of schuetzen riflery seems anathema to the basic tenets of ASSRA to me.

One final comment on "technology":

It's the person that wins the shoot, not the rifle.

If it "bothers" you that the guy next to you 'beat' you with his 'scoped' rifle while you chose to use open sights, then I submit the "spirit of the shoot" is not your primary interest.

Paul
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #28 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 1:36pm
Print Post  

From  40 Rod:
( When the rule book was written tuners didn't exist. )

Not so, unless the rule book was written over 50 years ago. My rule book is dated 2002 and tuners were around long before that.

Also, from 40 Rod:
( To clear up the situation here is the way I understand the answer: Tuners are not legal at this time, however bobsleds, blooptubes and weights attached to the barrel are. It comes down to a question of "In the spirit of the match". )

  When did they become "not legal", I cant find anything in my rule book about them and no additions or insert pages came with my book.

From DonH:
( When we talk of tuners here I assume we are talking about a separate piece or unit  adjustable, which is attached to the barrel at the muzzle for the purpose effecting such changes to barrel harmonics as to aid accuracy. )

My answer to DonH is:
Yes and No, the tuner I use is a separate piece that is adjustable, but it is NOT attached to the barrel in any way. It does in fact change the barrel harmonics to aid accuracy but cant be seen where it's attached to the gun unless the gun is taken apart, now would I be "cheating" under current rules as written in the 2002 rule book, I don't think so as tuners are not mentioned in the current rule book, but with all the "assuming" going on I may be wrong.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #29 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 2:34pm
Print Post  
 
I don't know what the problem is with having a set of specific, rules, equipment, & guns to shoot ASSRA matches. If you shoot NRA Bullseye pistol you WILL shoot it the way they want you to or you get DQ'd. Same for Hi-Power, and  BP shilouette. You name it and if the NRA plays in it you will play according to their rules. The same goes for any shooting game their is.

Those of you that have shot in registered competition know what I'm saying is the gospel truth. You can argue and whine to your buddies, or on the Forums, till the cows come home but unless you get it past the rules committee it ain't gonna happen. As an NRA lifer since the early 60's we have got to vote for BoD, and changes in the rules...... But only those people the BoD puts before us, and only on those rules the BoD wants us to.

  Everybody whines about how we need more members. The ASSRA will die if we don't. All I can say is you guys haven't been in the ASSRA very long then. They've been saying the same thing since the late 70's I know of and they're still here. And from what I gather ever since the organization was founded.

  So I really can't see why all the hassle here. If you want rule changes run for the BoD, or if they have one, rules committee. I'm sure the ASSRA would welcome you to serve. Then you can try and get all the changes you want.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7652
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #30 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 3:08pm
Print Post  
Tenex agree with your comments on Shooting according to the established rules except for one thing.

NRA has a procedure to petition for rules changes and makes adjustments in a organized and orderly fashion.  I know because I was the one who petitioned and successfully convinced them to allow the CPA action in BPCS. It took some time but during the process was kept up to date with progress, objections, and compromise positions on the issue.   

Not that some people are going to give awards for allowing the CPA but the world changes. At the time there was demand for match ready rifles and the Montana builders had delays of years mostly because of  selling production in advance to speculators.   

And most important NRA members vote for the BOD no matter were they live.

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #31 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 4:15pm
Print Post  
boats,

  You are right in that the NRA has a way to petition for rule changes. I've never tried to do it but listening to the BP Shilouette shooters try, I take it it get to be a pretty cold day in h--- before you will see it.

And we do get to vote for the NRA BoD. But as I said...... only those thatht e NRA puts forth. There is room for write-ins, but I think Neal Knox might have been the only one that got in that way.

  I will admit that there needs to be more of it in the ASSRA, but that will also take petitioning the BoD. If I get Keith right that isn't happening.

  So why do all we here is the whining here where it does absolutely no good. Better to waste your energy writing emails or making phone calls. I'd bet good money you'd get a far better response that way than complaining on here.

  Some of the things mentioned on here in this thread don't really belong in the ASSRA. Like the tuner. I asked about it because I have one for my BSA. JB said no way, so I let it go. They weren't around back in the Schuetzen era so I had no quarrel with it. Plenty of other competitions for it.

  Then you have the response that if you can't see my tuner then maybe it ought to be legal. Real "Spirit of the Game" comment in my opinion!

  Actually if you want to get picky about it the BSA, which a pretty good percentage of the shooters use, wasn't either. But it's allowed so I don't quarrel with that either. It's an extremely accurate gun and makes a perfect entry level gun for our type competitions, price-wise. Our club has matches for any gun, any sight, so as to introduce new shooters to the game. Their scores are considered just as "legal" as those shot from SS's, and they collect their fair share of prises. In fact our top offhand shooter uses a bolt gun.

  The ASSRA is never going to be a large organization, if due to nothing else the cost of the guns to get into it. That limits participation to those riding on daddy's dollar, or older men who can finally afford it. The people we'd like to have join, outside of the above BSA, just can't afford it in most cases.

  Maybe the ASSRA ought to just say only original guns will be allowed. No repro's. Your scopes must be the Malcolm style! None of these fancy click adjustable external ones. That would be true "Spirit of the Game".

  So even if some don't think the ASSRA isn't up to date enuf I think anyone can see that the ASSRA is fairly liberal in the guns, and scopes they will allow. It's just that the BoD won't roll over for the complainers.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DonH
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #32 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 5:32pm
Print Post  

It has been said on this forum in many different ways that Etna Green is  and too far away to attend the annual meeting. For the first several years I attended shoots at E.G. at least one shoot a year would be attended by an elderly gent from (I believe) Long Island. If I understood correctly, the last year he attended he was 90 years old. Yes he had to ride out with someone but at his age he could have sat in a retirement home. It apparently was important to him to attend shoots so he did. Also, it was deemed important enough to Charlie Dell to be there that he would hitch a ride out to Indiana with other shooters until his health would no longer permit it.

In light of the above, those of us who are younger and more able might want to re-examine our reasons why we cannot attend the annual meeting. How important is it? This is not a take-sides statement; it is just how the real world works. It might not hurt to look in the mirror and ask that guy, "If is is that important to me why DON'T I go to the meeting?" After all, if there really is that much support for change, you might have to only go once. 

Oh, and those "dues" that pay for that private range that only a few are allowed to go to? $35.00 a year gets you a membership AND  6 bi-monthly issues of a magazine. The same $35.00 per year only gets you the 6 magazines from Precision Shooting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bnice
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1919
Location: Iowa
Joined: Nov 30th, 2006
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #33 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 6:23pm
Print Post  
I guess I would like to make one point about tuners, They do help make a gun more competitive. My choices for .22 are to find the best ammo I can afford and try different lots till I find one that shoots. I have done this and then tuned it with my tuner and improved my accuracy. My tuner cost $100. A better barrel would be probably $300 or better and it may or may not shot better. I can use ammo that is mid range and get accuracy as good as top dollar ammo out of my gun without the tuner. This game is expensive enough, its nice to be able to cut cost somewhere.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #34 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 6:55pm
Print Post  

tenx said:
Then you have the response that if you can't see my tuner then maybe it ought to be legal. Real "Spirit of the Game" comment in my opinion! 

I'm not concerned about the so called "Spirit of the Game", my concern is how the game is played today, I can see that there's a lot of stuff done today that is not traditional, such as internal adjustment scopes, my concern is what the rules are today, not what they were last year and not what they may be two years from now. 

So If that swing was meant for me please go back and read my reply # 6, better yet here it is:

I don't have a problem with them being LEGAL or NOT LEGAL, I'll shoot with or without one, but I cant find anything in the rule book about tuners being on a barrel as an attachment, or as a permanent part of a barrel. 

The reason I ask the questions is because I don't know the answers, is that so hard to understand, I'm not trying to as you say "stir the pot". But if I'm going to shoot in this association I would like to have a good understanding of the rules, so far I cant get any straight answers to most of my questions.

I cant believe that my questions are so hard that no one has a proper simple answer to something like:

When did tuners become "not legal", I cant find anything in my rule book about them and no additions or insert pages came with my book.

Or this one:
The tuner I use is a separate piece that is adjustable, but it is NOT attached to the barrel in any way. 

It does in fact change the barrel harmonics to aid accuracy but cant be seen where it's attached to the gun unless the gun is taken apart, now would I be "cheating" under current rules as written in the 2002 rule book.

  I don't think so as tuners are not mentioned in the current rule book, but with all the "assuming" going on I may be wrong.

What seems to be so hard about questions like this, that someone in authority cant answer them, again, like I've said, I don't care about tuners, I do care about me shooting within the rules as they are written. I sure don't want to shoot a match and then have someone come along and say I've been DQ'ed because of a rule that someone forgot to put in the rule book.
Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #35 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 8:11pm
Print Post  
Shooter_1

perhaps your question can be generalized to the following:

If "it" is not explicitly mentioned in the rule book is "it" legal or illegal?

It might be very nontraditional teflon tape patched bullets, or colored filters in iron sights or bp substitutes in a bp match or whatever.  

1.  If it is not explicitly allowed, it is illegal.

or

2.  If it not explicitly disallowed, it is legal.  

If one of these two questions is correct, then you can deduce whether your version of a tuner is allowable.  Maybe.

Brent
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 11904
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #36 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 9:32pm
Print Post  

 
IMO there should be two classes of shooters Traditional & Unlimited. It’s fine by me if someone wants to use a modern action, stainless barrel, internal adjustment scope,  modern stock material.  Just report on what class they are in and have records for both classes.
[/quote] by Dave Carpenter.


I agree with Dave.  Seems to me it would remove a lot of grey areas in the current rules.   Smiley

                                                             Joe.


  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #37 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 9:38pm
Print Post  

Hi Brent,
For some reason it seems that an official cant answer any of these questions, I'm beginning to wonder if they know the difference between legal and illegal.
 
They don't seem to agree among themselves.

One official said that the Schuetzenmeister has ruled that tuners are not legal in ASSRA events.

Then the Schuetzenmeister denies everything by saying  he had nothing to do with that ruling. It was the BoD that ruled them to be NOT LEGAL ?.

I direct a question to the Schuetzenmeister, I get no response ?.

Then another official says that when the rule book was written tuners didn't exist. Now I know that's not true because my rule book was written in 2002 and I started using tuners in the early 1960's

The same official then says that tuners are not legal at this time, however weights attached to the barrel are ?. Isn't that a type of tuner ?.
 
I direct a question to that official, again no response ?.

Then another official says, when we talk of tuners here he assumes we are talking about a separate piece or unit  adjustable, which is attached to the barrel at the muzzle for the purpose effecting such changes to barrel harmonics as to aid accuracy.

Well I know of about 5 different types of tuners, all seem to do about the same thing but in a different way, the one I use can not be seen on the gun and is not attached to the barrel, so I ask another question of this official, again no response ?.

I could go on and on because there are more questions un-answered but I think I've made it clear, no one seems to know what the answers are, and if the officials cant answer questions that dues paying members have, I guess we can do what we want because one one will know if it's right or wrong.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
xxgrampa
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #38 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 10:18pm
Print Post  
greetings,

have a martimi mk 5, the bbl can be tuned by adjusting the forarm screws.. Wink Wink

..ttfn..grampa..
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Irascible
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 279
Location: Pleasant Valley
Joined: Apr 6th, 2007
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #39 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 11:32pm
Print Post  
GEEEZ guys, I'm sorry I brought it up. But I will say one thing. I have raced cars for a living most of my life. All of the rule books I have read contain a paragraph stating "If the rule book does not say something is allowed, then it is not"
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 11904
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #40 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 11:35pm
Print Post  
Quote:
greetings,

have a martimi mk 5, the bbl can be tuned by adjusting the forarm screws.. Wink Wink

..ttfn..grampa..



I hate Martini's with forearm screws !  I do.   Grin


                                                                        Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #41 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 11:38pm
Print Post  
tenx,
GREAT,We wont have to listen to you cry any longer. I don't like repeating myself but I do want answers, from officials that should know what is going on, not from someone like you that thinks they know what is going on. I've told you once that the only official that has given me any positive Info was Keith, he was the one that told me that the rule book was current and at this time was the only one ASSRA has to go by. Do you understand that, I'll say it again, Keith, one of the officials, said that the 2002 rule book was the one in use now.

 Happy to hear that you wont be responding any longer as we need positive Info from officials that know what is going on, not from members that think they know what is going on.
 Shooter
« Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2008 at 11:51pm by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #42 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 12:07am
Print Post  
The basis action for the various BSAs is the Belgian Francotte Cadet, introduced by at least 1880 when several hundred were bought by the government of the Victoria territory in Australia. That IMO makes the various BSAs a lot more authentic than many others.

The level of response from the NRA is generally a function of who you contact and how you do it. For example I was happy with the response to a petition I wrote to the Silhouette Committee but I was fortunate in knowing not only exactly which Committee to write but also in having a contact name of a particular person (total stranger to me) on that Committee. If I had sent the letter to the Competition Committee or no particular person I probably wouldn't have gotten the same result.

BTW many past NRA Directors have been elected from the petitions of the members. AAMOF I personally make it a point to NEVER vote for any of the NRA Nominating Committee nominees, simply because of the taint of their endorsement. Believe I voted for three candidates this time, the rest were all NRA-endorsed. Too bad, but at least that's 23 votes that won't go to folks I don't particularly trust.


I wish I could remember but have forgotten the exact quotation, it's something about choking on a gnat but passing a camel......

tuner = gnat
internal/click adjustment scope = merely one of many camels


And yeah I keep hearing about the ancient fellow who travels across what seems like half the continent to attend EG. I say bully for him and I hope he continues to enjoy his EG trips for many more years!

But for me, EG attendance would take $ I don't possess and time I can't dedicate, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. It's far too easy for some more fortunate/prosperous folks to say "Just come to EG!" but it doesn't work that way in the real world for most of us. For instance I can't afford a nice original rifle, all mine are junkers or ones I rebuilt myself and, again, I bet I'm not alone in this.
Just one man's perspective, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #43 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 12:23am
Print Post  
Quote:

Oh, and those "dues" that pay for that private range that only a few are allowed to go to? $35.00 a year gets you a membership AND  6 bi-monthly issues of a magazine. The same $35.00 per year only gets you the 6 magazines from Precision Shooting.  


The six issues used to come on time, and also used to be a LOT more interesting and informative for the most part. That was back when The New Editor was here, but since the big Editor Replacement uproar and the advent of The New New Editor and The New New New Editor, well, let's just say that comparing the more recent Journals with either of Precision Shooting's (much larger content & more INclusive) publications, well....I will merely say that that was a poorly-chosen comparison IMO.
JMO, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7652
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #44 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 6:08am
Print Post  
This is a clear distinction new shooters may not have thought about. Schetzenmasters at Etna Green have nothing to do with what Schuetzenmasters do in other locations.  In 15 years have shot 8 different Schuetzen matches in 5 states around my home two out West and 2 outside the US. In almost every case  Rifles are on the line that could not be used at Etna Green. Courses of fire are not exactly the same match to match.

It makes no difference what the rule book says, if your Schuetzenmaster wants to allow tuners, short barrel rifles, shoot standing rest, bolt guns whatever It's under local control. If you go to Etna Green you shoot by there Schuetzenmasters rules.

That's the way it is.

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DonH
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #45 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 7:41am
Print Post  
Shhh... don't tell anyone but there is a game where a guy can use all the tuners they want. It's called ARA, BR50, etc. Single shots are welcome too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #46 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 7:53am
Print Post  
Shooter1 
I thought I was clear. The match committee is working on making recommendations that the board will vote on. They are working on it, yours is not the only iron in the fire. As of now the way the tuner question is handled at most of the places that I shoot is No Tuners. Bloop Tubes, and weight attached to the barrel are legal. Yes I know that you can use both to tune your barrel if you want to put in the work to do that to get around the tuner ruleing than knock yourself out. 
Joe
Since I took over the Journal I have not missed a deadline. The magazine has come out on time every other month. I resent your statement that the problem is not fixed. That you don't think the content is inclusive enough is a personal value judgement. I tryed to hold out an olive branch to you with an invitation to write articles but recieved none. Now I know why you are more interested in perpetuating a grudge over some persieved slight by another than pitching in and helping to make the magazine better. In the interum I have elected to print articles from writers who submit articles that they feel are interesting to their fellow shooters. 

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7652
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #47 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 8:06am
Print Post  
40 Rod has a valid point.  It's a club magazine run by volunteers without paid writers. Content is what we submit. He will publish any well written article on relevant topics.  There was a lapse when editors changed but it was corrected as soon as possible.  Can see no reason to criticize on content or the general management of ASSRA's Journal. 

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #48 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 9:23am
Print Post  
40Rod, it is indeed a value judgement, and I stand by it. The schedule is certainly better now but the comparison to other magazines is ludicrous.

I HAVE submitted another article, which you and your predecessor immediately lost. He (the previous New Editor) was gracious & civilized enough to give me a handsome apology both privately and publicly on this forum, but no such apology from you and no effort to find it and publish. Some olive branch!

I have repeatedly given specific details of just how the Editor of Precision Shooting took a 2-bit newsletter and turned it into 2 world-class magazines, but so far The Journal Editorship hasn't seemed interested. Wonder why?

An extremely interesting dissertation on scope building appeared on this forum but it took some very pointed and repeated prodding before you, The Editor, reacted to ask him to submit it to the Journal. Wonder why?

Boats, the writers used to be paid, and I believe The Editor also is paid. The past Editors and writers were definitely paid. My last article to be published was paid at a lesser rate and I think this is one of the things that stimulated The Editor Replacement Shuffle.

Who knows; we certainly don't get the straight info from at least some of the org leadership any more.
Too bad, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
jeffer1942
Senior Forum Member
ASSRA Target Sales
****
Offline



Posts: 283
Location: Chicago North suburb
Joined: May 31st, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #49 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 10:01am
Print Post  
Joe:

While this forum is open to any and all and I really do appreciate your helping suggestions with regard to various single shot technical issues (really, I do); but, there is always an undercurrent when you write about the ASSRA, its leadership or the journal.  Is there anything that you LIKE about ASSRA and what it stands for?   Continual grousing gets old and boring after a while.  
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #50 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 10:55am
Print Post  
Irascible,

  You've said it better than I ever could. If it ain't in the rule book it's not legal.

  Not to say of course that individual Schuetzenmeisters can't allow whatever they want at their matches. Of course any records that are shot under "non" rule book rules won't qualify for the record book.

boats,

  Maybe things have changed since I wrote a few articles for the "new, new" (forget which one  Smiley ) editor a year or so ago, but I was paid $150 apiece for them.

  I will agree with JD tho that the reason I quit was the articles were "lost" or changed to the point I felt there wasn't much sense sending in anymore. I don't particularly blame that editor since he had a "road" job and way to many irons in the fire.

  I will also say I think 40_Rod is doing a pretty good job. The issues have come on time.... I got my latest issue last week.

  As he says the content is very subjective to what the individual reader wants.

  Personally I don't care to see all those scores published. I've graduated beyond that sort of thing. But I also know a lot of "newbies" need them so they can see what bullets, powders and loads are being used. I know I "ate" them up when I first started. Nothing like being out in the sticks with no one else interested in your game and not having a clue as to where to start.

  A friend thought that long dissertation on West Coast shooting was a farce. I thought it was pretty neat. But then I'm an arm chair historian and like that sort of thing.

  And I'm sure many thought what I wrote wasn't their cup of tea either, altho I did get some private emails and printed letters to the editor wanting more.

  And of course as every editor has said since I first joined the ASSRA back in the late 70's...... They can't print what they don't have. So we have to submit articles, take what's given us, or lump it. No sense complaining about it if you're not part of the solution. I've encouraged two people to write because I know they could do a good job. But so far nothing.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #51 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:08am
Print Post  
If something must be explicitly stated to be legal, I think that leaves out bloop tubes which have been declared legal here but are not explicitly listed in the rules. Ditto various types of bullet patching materials, and many other issues that I have seen variously declared legal or illegal.   

Reading the rules on barrrels, it seems that back bored barrels would be allowable by description but I have been told that bloop tubes are not because they are "part of the barrel" and there for not covered by the description of legal barrels if you read that part.   

I'm sure that anyone could read through the rules and fine all sorts of things that are unmentioned but considered legal at most matches.  The book seems a bit sparse.

Brent
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #52 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:22am
Print Post  
Brent,

  Most organizations will tell you exactly what Irascible said. If it ain't specifically stated in the rule book it's NOT allowed.

  This is why the current revision of the rule book is out of date, and why it's being revised again. Many things have come up since then that need official sanction by the BoD. You mention a few, and I'm sure there are many others.

  What is the latest revision.... 2002? Some organizations revise their rule books every year to cover all those things shooters try to get away with, or to clear up some vague section that needs clarification. Most revise every two or three years.

  But, as you know, our club allows bloop tubes, back-bored barrels, and bolt action guns. I imagine I could probably show up with a tuner and no one would say anything. Of course if it's not legal and an ASSRA record is shot with a forbidden item, then it won't count.

  That;s why there needs to be a revision. Things are being discussed on here, and showing up at matches that need to be specifically addressed. NCOWS has to constantly make official comments on the suitability of a myriad of things that people are always trying to push thru as "authentic" to the period. Seems like at times half the magazine is devoted to this.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SPG
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #53 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:46am
Print Post  
Gentlemen,

Mr. Gussenhoven provided the only real solution to the problem...a Traditional and Open Class. Select a cut-off date on technology for the Traditional Class and things outside that date fall into Open Class. This works very well in the WSU; the best thing is that no shooter is turned away from a match provided he has a single shot rifle and is shooting a plain-base lead bullet.

This class system also solves the problem of old records. If one desires to break an old record, do it with equipment available at the time. New records shot with modern equipment are recognized as such. By the way, Mr. Borton is currently a WSU Open Class record holder for 10 shots, any sight, benchrest, 200 yards.

Another obvious advantage to the Open and Traditional Class system is that it harnesses that huge untapped energy source of shooters wanting to gain an "edge" in competition. In their quest for the "edge" they actually educate themselves on the myriad of techniques and equipment that was used in the "Good Old Days". In my mind, this is an excellent way to preserve our shooting heritage.

Of course, this all may be entirely too simple... 

Gute Ziele,

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #54 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 12:05pm
Print Post  
40 Rod,
Sorry if I missed or mis-understood what you said, if that's the case please accept my apology. I'm just going to shoot what I have the way it is, if someone wants to challenge my equip. they can have a go at it.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #55 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 12:27pm
Print Post  
Herr Stevie,

  Mein Gott! How dare you put forth such a simple solution. Aren't you aware that things must be as complicated as possible or else they won't be acceptable.

  So how you been getting along. Long time no hear.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #56 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 12:40pm
Print Post  
jeffer1942 wrote on Mar 27th, 2008 at 10:01am:
Joe: there is always an undercurrent when you write about the ASSRA, its leadership or the journal.  Is there anything that you LIKE about ASSRA and what it stands for?   Continual grousing gets old and boring after a while.  


Hi Jeffer1942, you raise some interesting points and I'm glad you asked.

Yes, there sometimes is an undercurrent in my comments, and usually it's a lot deeper and stronger than my words indicate. It stems from the way I and others have been treated in the past. FWIW my recent comments have been a lot more complimentary than in the past, simply because some of the present BoD seem more responsive to the members than in the past. I hope it continues and gets better.

And yes there's a lot I like about what the ASSRA stands (or rather is supposed to stand) for. I love single shot rifles and so joined the ASSRA back in the '80s but wasn't able to pay much attention to the org until around the turn of the millenium. I won't burden you with a lot of detail but will say that the then-BoD informed me that they were only interested in Schuetzen shooting and they didn't want to hear any more comments about any other types of single shot rifles or shooting, and they weren't interested in having anything in the Journal except Schuetzen-related stuff. I coined the terms 'INclusive' and 'EXclusive' to describe my position and the then-BoDs position.

In all fairness I believe this was an ill-considered response by some of the BoD in the aftermath of the fear (and apparently actual panic) inspired by The New Editor's new policies at the Journal. around the time of The Big Blowup. Nevertheless it was a sobering and angering experience for me, to realize that the ASSRA leadership of that time was actually opposed to anything except Schuetzen. One of the then-BoD was actually heard to say that he hoped the ASSRA would not grow any larger since he might not get to  use his favorite shooting bench at EG if more folks attended the shoots. Is it any wonder that I distrust someone like that? Perhaps more importantly, shouldn't you?

It might surprise you to learn just how many of the then-BoD are still on the present BoD.

Yes there is lot that I love about the ASSRA and its stated aims but there's also a lot that I fear about some of the leadership and their attitudes, and so I try to have what the quotation calls eternal vigilance. I guess when you read my comments you need to consider the source (VBG).
Regards, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #57 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 12:45pm
Print Post  
What SPG said. And I think it was mighty handsome of SPG to publicly acknowledge the accomplishments of a modest shooter.
Regards, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SPG
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #58 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 1:17pm
Print Post  
TenX/Pete,

I know...simple solutions are pretty boring compared to revising 23-volume sets of rules or internet duels.

I have been immersing myself in the black art of slug gun shooting and sort of keeping off the skyline; however, I think I may have just let my hat show above the ridge.

Gute Ziele,

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jim_Borton
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 449
Location: Tipp City
Joined: Apr 9th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #59 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 1:54pm
Print Post  
Questionable Equipment Section 3.0
All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are contrary to the rules and regulations are forbidden. the responsblity shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment for inspection and approval by the Schuetzenmeister or the BOD. Equipment judged to be in violation of this section will be allowed to be shot on the range as experimental equipment but targets fired with such equipment will not be scored and entered in the matches. If equipment is used that has not been approved by Schuetzenmeister, and is found by the Schuetzenmeister to be in violation of this section, scores fired shall be declared void, unless a challenge is made and is upheld by ranking club officers!
  

Hugs & Kisses
ASSRA life
NRA life
NMLRA life
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #60 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 1:59pm
Print Post  
Quote:
I have been immersing myself in the black art of slug gun shooting and sort of keeping off the skyline; however, I think I may have just let my hat show above the ridge.


Good thing you have a tall hat (or is that a short head Smiley ) looks like no damage done other than a little extra cranial ventilation... 

Smiley
Brent

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #61 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 3:40pm
Print Post  
JD,

Quote:
One of the then-BoD was actually heard to say that he hoped the ASSRA would not grow any larger since he might not get to  use his favorite shooting bench at EG if more folks attended the shoots.


  Gee! This sounds like one of the "old timers" who helped form the club, and is the main reason our club doesn't affiliate with the ASSRA. Might get to many people show up so we have to rotate off the benches.  Smiley

Steve,

  Oh! Was that your hat showing above the ridge? I thought it was something a little lower.  Smiley  Smiley

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
xxgrampa
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #62 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 1:38am
Print Post  
all this talk reminds me.. better get my dues in for the next couple of years... i love schuetzen... i really do..

God bless etna green and the geezer wagon.. as i live in ca. the green for me, will in all likelyhood never happen.. but i don't care..

i'm proud to be associated with this fine, fine organization..


hoo-ray, hoo-ray for the assra and the green..

..ttfn..grampa..
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Cat_Whisperer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


No 1, 9.3x74R

Posts: 3953
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #63 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 7:28am
Print Post  
I think for MOST of us EG will never happen!

BUT that's not a good enough reason to kill it; on the contrary, it's good reason to support something that facilitiates bringing out the BEST shooting - by competition.  I support the olympics for the very same reason.

Rules are not sacred; they are guidelines.  What's sacred are the fundamentals - 2nd amendment, quality shooting - civilized competition, fun.



  

Cat Whisperer (trk)
Chief of Smoke
Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works
Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army
assra #9885
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
KAF
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #64 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 9:11am
Print Post  
The current rule book was reprinted in 1996,  there were no changes, or revisions at that time.
I am not sure when any rule was revised, but it hasn't been as far as I can remember.

The ASSRA had approved  traditional rifle  rules a few years ago.
But no matches have been added in the traditional class.

I myself would welcome such matches, for those who shoot the originals or the reproductions in the original form, sights, etc.

I think Steve is totally correct in his comments. Easy is much better.

I would like to see a group of members to contact the board and request that traditional matches be implemented.
All it takes is a shown interest and a request to the current board to get it going.

See this page for contact info or the board members.
EXPRESS your opinions.
If you are a non member and support the traditional matches and it might draw you back say so.

 
President: 

Dennis Hrusosky

Phone               (815) 729-0460

E-mail               President@assra.com



Vice President:

Robert Carow

Summer Phone (815) 455-3159
Winter Phone   (727) 392-3811

E-mail               VicePresident@assra.com



Treasurer:

Richard Eesley

Phone               (630) 369 – 1310

E-mail               Treasurer@assra.com



Secretary:

Laurie Gapko 

Phone               (608) 628 – 0536

E-mail               Secretary@assra.com



Journal Editor

John Merz

Phone               (865) 671-6267

E-mail                JournalEditor@assra.com



Director A:

Ed Cooksey

Phone               (517) 265-6238

E-mail               DirectorA@assra.com



Director  B/ Range Manager:

Charles D. Persons

Phone               (260) 244 – 3317

E-mail               DirectorB@assra.com





Director C:

Jon Welda

Phone               (507) 894 – 4751

Cell                   (608) 386 – 4570

E-mail               DirectorC@assra.com



Director D / Membership Admin. / Asst. Schuetzenmeister

Keith Foster

Phone               (419)-393 – 2976

E-mail               Membership@assra.com



Director E:

Steve Durren

Phone               (517) 264 – 0528

E-mail               DirectorE@assra.com



Director F:

Ken Meyer

Phone               (260) 667-0737

E-mail               DirectorF@assra.com



Director / Schuetzenmeister

Jim Borton

Phone               (937) 667 – 5027

E-mail               Shuetzenmeister@assra.com



Clubs Coordinator

Martin Stenback

Phone               (920) 688 – 2957

E-Mail               Clubs@assra.com


I sure hope I made sense, the effect of meds after a bit of suergery has the mind a bit fussy.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SPG
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #65 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 11:03am
Print Post  
KAF,

One does not have to have special matches for traditional rifles...simply have the Traditional category for every match. When the WSU does a match it is understood that there is the high traditional competitor as well as the high open class competitor. The medal that one wins has a bar denoting traditional or open class.

Interesting to note that in our matches traditional shooters outnumber open class competitors by a substantial margin...and the majority of the traditional class shooters are using black powder. I think this is something to consider when trying to make decisions on how to grow the number of participating shooters.

Again, the beauty of Traditional and Open classes is that no shooter with a single shot rifle is turned away. The class scenario is also an excellent way to handle those troublesome issues like shooting coats, shooting shoes, tuners, thumbhole stocks, ect. Also, I have noticed at every match that there is quite a good "bull session" between those shooting traditional and those shooting open class rifles. A friendly and positive exchange of information that really contributes to the overall experience of the match...something that we all want to see and which makes for a strong association.

Gute Ziele,

Steve

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KAF
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #66 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 11:38am
Print Post  
"One does not have to have special matches for traditional rifles...simply have the Traditional category for every match."

BINGO,  say the Schoyen match, 10 shots for score, 200yds bench, any sight.
Class Traditional.........
Class Open or whatever...........

Seems so simple yes?

And I bet a BUT comes up.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #67 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 12:32pm
Print Post  
  OK, the new guy will do the BUT. 
I cant get to my "old" rule book right now to see if this is already covered, but who or what decides what is Traditional and what is not, will it be left up to each and every Schuetzenmeister across the country. 

Example, I have a Ruger # 1 that looks like a Schuetzen rifle but it's new, more or less like a CPA rifle, new but looks like a Stevens. What class would theses be in.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jim_Borton
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 449
Location: Tipp City
Joined: Apr 9th, 2004
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #68 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 12:34pm
Print Post  
A "GREAT " point, Shooter_1!!!!!    Kiss
  

Hugs & Kisses
ASSRA life
NRA life
NMLRA life
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KAF
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #69 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 1:51pm
Print Post  
"Example, I have a Ruger # 1 that looks like a Schuetzen rifle but it's new, more or less like a CPA rifle, new but looks like a Stevens. What class would theses be in."

If I remember right, a shooters council or whatever it is called in the rules that were adopted for the traditional class by the ASSRA. would make a ruling on that type rifle.

I do know there are many folks that are in the ASSRA or on the board that could determine that.  Pretty easy I thought.

Unless you are agaisnt anything that might be of importance to the membership.

I see it as if somebody is for the whole of the ASSRA, it will be figured out, and not have a negitive attitude towards change for the good of all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #70 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 2:12pm
Print Post  
Sounds good to me. I am not against anything that might be of importance to the membership or the good of the ASSRA. Does ASSRA have a rules committee, and if so who is on it that members can talk to about things like this.
  Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SPG
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #71 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 2:45pm
Print Post  
Shooter,

If the Traditional Class is defined by a technology cutoff date...the WSU uses 1917...it is very easy to determine what is Traditional and what is Open. The Ruger is obviously a post-1917 patent so it would be an Open Class rifle. The cutoff date makes it easy to determine this without having to go to a board of directors or other governing body.

Take a look at the WSU rules that are posted on the website and I think you will get a clear picture of how easy this works.

Gute Ziele,

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooter_1
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #72 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 3:08pm
Print Post  
Thanks Steve,
I think I'm starting to go blind reading all these rules, just to much stuff for a new guy to adsorb all at once, I'll leave that up to the guys that make up the ASSRA rules, they know much more about such things than I do. 

If the technology cut off date  is 1917, I guess that means that a lot of rifles being used are originals and/or collectors items, or the newer ones being used are exact copies of the originals, am I correct on this.
Shooter
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SPG
Ex Member


Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #73 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 4:42pm
Print Post  
Shooter,

Yes, you are correct...reproductions faithful to original pre-1917 patents are legal for traditional class. 

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
38_Cal
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2250
Location: Montezuma, Iowa
Joined: Apr 27th, 2005
Re: Barrel Tuners?
Reply #74 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 11:41pm
Print Post  
Also take a look on the ISSA website, (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links), for the general rules and traditional class rules.   

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
  

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 
Send TopicPrint