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jacob_rankin
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sled
Mar 24th, 2008 at 8:20pm
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i have some bull barrels,and a hex barrel,and all are floating... how do i know where to put a sled.or a rest on them.... is there a special place,, i have heard that it messes up the harmonics if you touch the barrel with anything,,but how can you put a sled on one,and not mess up the accuracy... ..,,or even touch the barrel and mess up the accuracy?  and the stocks are almost gone,and won't be in the way . the entire barrel.. all the barrel is exposed,,, . do i have to put a stock and cover all the barrel,and touch the stock,or can i touch the barrel with a rest to shoot,and a sled?  thanks men,,,,,,,,,,,,  Roll Eyes
  
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tenx
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Re: sled
Reply #1 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 10:16am
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jacob,

  The idea is to place the "sled" at the harmonic nodes, or "dead spots". There are a coupla ways to determine this. The one you read a lot about, and possibly you can find the threads on here discussing it, is to coat your barrel with chalk dust and tap it with a hammer. Where the barrel vibrates the chalk will "walk" around and the dead spots won't move. Some say it works, others say it doesn't, I've never tried it. The way I do this is by sliding the "sled" up and down the barrel in small increments until best accuracy is found. 

   This can take a long time so here's what I've basically found out. Put the back edge (edge nearest the chamber) 6" from the muzzle. You'll have to adjust this a little but 1/2" either way has worked for me on three rifles that are capable of sub MOA. One will even do sub 1/2 MOA. Then I wrap a piece of electricians tape around the barrel so I can find that spot the next time i put the "sled" on that gun.

  Actually I'm not sure if this is all that critical as accuracy really depends on quite a few things other than barrel vibration, so I doubt that if you don't hit a node dead center you won't be able to tell the difference in accuracy.

  The above will apply more to short (28") 3 wgt. barrels, and heavier, than those "buggy whip" barrels. 

PETE
  
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Brent
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Re: sled
Reply #2 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 10:24am
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The exact best place is 131 mm from the muzzle.  I know this for sure because that is where I put mine on my .22, so it must be right Wink

Seriously, that may be where I wear mine, but the best distance, I do not really know.  I have not found a lot of effect of moving it, but I think it does matter a small bit.   

I believe that there is a formula for calculating the nodal position but I cannot find any reference to it any more. Pete's 6" suggestion (152.4 mm  Smiley ), is probably as good as any, but I find that the length of the bench can be as big a factor as anything.   

Brent
  
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tenx
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Re: sled
Reply #3 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 11:09am
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Brent,

  After serious consideration and much experimentation I settled on the 6" + or - 1/2" cuz it allows the muzzle to stick over the end of the bench. This allows the dirty wiping patches to drop into my "catcher" instead of all over the bench top, creating a mess.  Smiley

  Then there was an experiment that Mann did that seemed to show that if your muzzle is within 6" of the bench top, and behind the front edge, that there are shock waves(?) that will disturb the bullets flight at it's most critical point. 

  So. There is method in my madness!

PETE
  
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Brent
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Re: sled
Reply #4 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 11:22am
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That all sounds reasonable to me.  I like to have the patches drop over the end of the bench, but my .22 doesn't get patched very much.   

The shock wave thing has a few problems scientifically.  The shockwave cannot move faster than the speed of sound I think.  Certainly not faster than the bullet if supersonic.  So, the wave would have to travel down to the bench and back up to the bullet, now in flight before the bullet has left the air space over the table.  I don't think it can do that if the bench rest is anything like normal.  Just ain't enough time to cover that amount of space and kick the bullet.   

Brent
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: sled
Reply #5 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 1:11pm
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I always heard it was more like 1/4", but........

There is a well-known aeronautical phenomenon known as 'ground effect' that comes into play here but, like Brent, I believe it's largely mitigated if not eliminated by supersonic speeds.

Facts would be good here.
Regards, Joe
  
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wwben47
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Re: sled
Reply #6 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 1:35pm
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One thing that might need mentioned here is what KIND of shooting you will be doing with a particular gun...Most of my shooting is off xsticks either prone or sitting. It wouldnt do me much good to work up a load with the rifles forestock rested on sandbags and then go to the sticks and the barrel rested on the last inch or two of the barrel for a match.  Brian Youngberg sells an excellent set of "bench" xsticks, for those who like to practice sitting at the bench.
  
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tenx
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Re: sled
Reply #7 - Mar 25th, 2008 at 3:36pm
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Brent,

  Maybe shock wave isn't the correct word. You're right in that any kind of disturbance wave behind the bullet can't do much in the way I'm talking about. But...... What about that air column in front of the bullet?

  But.....  It is well known that the gas pressure coming out behind the bullet is coming out at a pressure/speed faster than the bullet. As witness high speed photo's showing the smoke surrounding the bullet at the muzzle. This dissipates rather quickly so might not affect the bullet much, if any.

  What Mann did was to place and fire a barrel just off a plank to some distance above. Apparently this affected accuracy. So what was the cause? The air column moving in front of the bullet is traveling as fast as the bullet, and the gas behind is traveling faster once it exits the muzzle. So it could be that both have some effect on it.

  It's probably a moot point these days as a normal front rest is well off the bench top and most shoot with the muzzle at the front or hanging over.

  We also know that the first 20-30 yds. of a bullets flight, before it goes to sleep, are the most critical so it probably doesn't take much influence to alter it's flight. It wouldn't take many thousandths of an inch to disperse a group noticeably.

  JB,

  You might be right. 4" is stuck in my head but that doesn't make it the gospel. Possibly that was as high as it needed to be before no effect was noticed. I just recall the experiment more for being one of those "Gee! I didn't know that!" kind of thing rather than the exact particulars.
 
PETE
  
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Redwing
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Re: sled
Reply #8 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 3:44pm
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Hi All !!!

Well, we finally got to the point where we search for any tool to improve our marksmanship. If only the old masters were alive today in our technically advanced world.. What could they do !!!, 

Don’t get me wrong, I for one enjoy researching the field for the non-obvious science that eludes our effort’s, but then I always return to the methods and equipment that we honor today in this wonderful sport..

Ground Effects: I recall a poster in my office that showed a B1 Bomber flying low over an inland mountain lake with columns of water rising up in its wake.. Awesome !!!

Coefficient of Drag & Friction:  Who would think we would design a Torpedo that would out-gas a vapor from its nose to reduce drag/friction and improve speed and accuracy…

Look at the long-range bullets of yester-year with a pointed ogive rather than round or flat. Even then they were on to something..

Keep up the good work all and never stop thinking….

Ed……
  
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jacob_rankin
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Re: sled
Reply #9 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 4:08pm
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first,i want to sincerely thank you for the most knowledgable answers i ever heard... i'm rally leagly blind,and am having to start shooting with my left side now,,my right eye left me,,,,, and well,,i am kinda starting all over....and my rifles are all mostly without the forarms,and the barrels are just exposed,and i have tried to put the rest,,i don't have a sled,,andi put the rest at 6 inches from the mozzel,and i have tried the rest all over the barrel,and i have found the best place to get groups,,is right in front of the reciever,,under the front of the scope,,on my 223,22-250,and my 270.... on the barrel there... i sure am sorry for the trouble,,and i know all of you have many ,many years,experience,or know the right people to help you,and know the right books,,,but is it  alright to start shooting from this place in front of he reciever,and not on the end of the barrel,,?... thanks for putting up with me,,men,,, Roll Eyes
  
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tenx
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Re: sled
Reply #10 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 4:33pm
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Jacob,

  Don't know as you've caused any trouble. We certainly don't need you to get into trouble.  Smiley 

  If I don't use a sled I put the front rest just ahead of the forearm and it works most of the time.

  Basically I find a sled is more useful to keep your gun level and from torquing when it goes off. You get up into full house BP loads for the .38/55 and if you don't blink you can see the left side of the sled rise off the rest. Considering the trajectories we use the sled also makes sure the sights are lined up exactly shot to shot. No small thing when the torque is such you practically have to realign the gun on the bags every shot.

  So hang in there and best of luck learning how to shoot left-eyed. I know a guy who had to do that for trap shooting and it worked out ok for him.

PETE
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: sled
Reply #11 - Mar 26th, 2008 at 5:05pm
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Jacob, let me add a bit of perhaps helpful info.  Steve Earle produces a special set of offset scope mounts for the Lyman/Unertl style bases to enable the right handed shooter to mount the scope so as to use his left eye.  They were designed for folks in situations similar to yours.  I reviewed them for the SSR Journal about a year or so ago and then passed them on to a fellow shooter who had gone through exactly what you describe... loss of vision in his right eye.  While I didn't shoot them due to time constraints and the fact that my right eye remains dominant, I was able to get a good sight picture with my left eye when I installed them, even when I held them up to shoot offhand style.  I don't have his address in front of me, but check any issue of the SSR Journal for telephone and e-mail contact info.

Regards and best of luck,
Charlie the Frog
  
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