KAF

From past experience with postals.  If the rules require 2 or 3 shooters at the same time and cross witnessing of targets there is little reason to run a postal. It's just a normal Schuetzen shoulder to shoulder match.

If the intent is to provide match shooting opportunities to isolated shooters self witnessing and mail in like CBA rules is the way to go.

It all depends on what you want to do.  At the shoulder to shoulder matches I shoot there is little time for a new course of fire.  I would shoot individual postals by my self and mail in the targets if the match was offered.  I have to drive at least 200 miles for a Schuetzen match. some are 500 miles. 

We shoot all summer long.

Boats

tenx wrote on Mar 14^th, 2008 at 9:48am:


Yes!

It's obvious if someone shoots 250's on postals and only 124's at shoulder to shoulder matches what's going on.

I have been looking at the rules for ASSRA Postal Matches.

I have yet to see anywhere that any witnesses were to attend the shooting.

These have been around a long time.

People do need to learn the rules for any matches.

Where is the witness stuff?

The witness thing to me reads as a self check thing, I see where it has to be signed or notarized.

BY NO means do the statements of the current SM speak for me.

I feel most people are honest no matter what the prize is. I guess I see it as I also  do.

I have had two replies from the board so far, both to the positive side of the postals.

THERE WILL be postals promoted as stated in the rule booklet, and I am hoping to have the Bench postals also!!!!  In spite of some.
Even if I have to do it!!!!!!!!!

If I sounded offensive in my earlier post, it was not meant to be that way. Apologies.

Section 1.10   ASSRA .22 Caliber Postal Match
 
100 shot, .22 Rimfire at 50 feet, Offhand, no slings, any non-bolt action single shot rifle, any sights. Targets must be returned and postmarked before May 30. entry fee is payable in US funds, sent to the Schuetzenmeister or designated Postal Match director. Competitors must be ASSRA members.
 
Section 1.11   ASSRA 100 Shot 100 Yard Centerfire Offhand Postal 
   Match
 
100 shot Match fired on ten #1 targets. Targets to be fired on any100 yard range, ASSRA members witnesses are not required except to check scoring and addition. Targets must be obtained from and returned to the Schuetzenmeister or designated Postal Match Director. Fees are payable in U.S. funds to be sent with request for targets. Targets to be returned to the Schuetzenmeister no later than July 31. Winners to be announced at the Fall Match. Competitors must be ASSRA members. There will be a permanent trophy to be kept in the clubhouse plus individual awards to the fifth place if participation warrants.


Section 3.06   Rimfire Postal Match
 
100 shots .22 caliber Rimfire at 50 feet. Offhand, no slings, any sights, any non-bolt action single shot rifle. Targets may be obtained from and must be returned to the Schuezenmeister or designated Postal Match Director. Targets must be returned and postmarked before May 30 of the designated year. Entry fee is payable in US funds. Competitors must be an ASSRA members.
    
Section 3.07   Centerfire Postal Match
 
100 shots Offhand on ten (10) #3 targets or equivalent, ten shots per target. Subject to rules on extra shots on individual targets. May be fired on any 100 yard range and witnesses are not required except to check scoring and addition. Targets may be obtained from and must be returned to the Schuetzenmeister or designated Postal Match Director. Targets must be returned and postmarked before July 31 of the designated year. Entry fee is payable in US funds. Competitors must be ASSRA members.

tenx,

"If this is the case you might as well shoot the targets and let the match director check your scores. Again.... Same difference!"


BINGO!!

I guess it will be upto the PSM to interrupt the presently written rules, correct?

If the PSM interrupts himself/herself to be the witness then so be it, as long as that is understood by all involved.

Jim_Borton wrote on Mar 14^th, 2008 at 1:04pm:



OK.   243 with 4 x's  200 yd 



But on a serious note, WE need to just DO IT.

At the risk of being flamed, take a look at the Forum Topic of Postal Matches on the Cast Bullet Forum.  Note the down-loadable PDF rule book.

Quote:


I did.  The noteable difference is that what I pointed out has the details on some 20 or so POSTAL MATCHES with all the instructions, dates and addresses to send the results to; where ours is some 55 pages of detailed rules on how matches should be run.

I thought that the difference was remarkable in that one of the two was a good example of an organization that appeared to make it easy to participate.   

  I would tend to agree with Brent that any Postal should be open to anyone who wants to shoot it. I  think it would be a good way to get new members. But..... The ASSRA has a right to set it up any way they want with whatever rules they want.

  Having run these Postal matches Brent & I know what works. But the ASSRA will learn, as we had to, what you have to do to make it happen.

  As Cat says we just have to do it. If that means using the ASSRA rules then so-be-it. The WSU League is pretty well run under ASSRA rules. I insisted on it! In fact you can use either organizations targets. Just like we found out if people want to play they will and if they don't they won't. If not enuf people shoot it then the rules will have to be changed, or the idea given up.

  It's really very simple. It just seems like people want to complicate things up till it dies abornin'.

Sorry tenx,
I have to disagree with your idea of letting anyone shoot in the Postal Matches, the matches should be controlled and run by the ASSRA,  if the Matches are open to anyone ASSRA will not have any control over them, they should be set up for the members and run by the members, if someone wants to shoot they should have to join ASSRA. That's the way it is with the NRA, USRA, and most all other shooting associations, and the matches must be shot on official association targets. Bottom line, if it's a ASSRA match it should be for ASSRA members only.
  Shooter

Shooter_1,

"His words, "I don`t trust anyone when it come to this kind of stuff!" if the officials don't "TRUST" the members and are insinuating that they CHEAT"

Please Do Not include the others or me in that statement, I hope it is isolated on the board and the membership.

I for one am offended by our schuetzenmaster's comments and attitude and expect that many other people are as well. I would really like to see bench rest postal matches as part of ASSRA. Physical impairment keeps me from shooting offhand and it's so far to the nearest match that travel costs almost preclude attending. I'm sure there are others in like situations who would like to participate. I really don't expect anything to change and if it does it will be so complicated that it wont work. The vast majority of members will never have a say in how our club is run as most will never go to Etna Green to vote. I guess I'll just shoot against myself and even lie to myself about who won.

Bill

As to why the postal matchs should be for ASSRA members I'll tell you what my mother told my sister, If you give away the milk than nobody will buy the cow. Membership should be a minimum requirement for entry. The reason that the WSU didn't insist on membership for entry is they do not have individual membership, clubs are affiliated. That is the way that Steve wanted to set up the WSU, God bless him, Its his fiddle he can call the tune. 
But the attitude that the ASSRA should make available to all the benifits of membership like if was some kind of government intitlement programe is just wrong. 

40 Rod

SO, we can have TWO categories of entries:  Members and "any body".

AND we can have a check-off:  "Have you cheated on the score you reported?  __Yes  __No"  (Just like the "Are you a fugitive from justice?")

And I shouldn't go this far, but, how about: "Do you trust ( insert membership or BOD or ___ )?"



ENOUGH ALREADY!

Let's shoot!

Quote:


Are you surprised?

Quote:


That happens on a regular basis.  Sometimes with a brief statement of "read the rules" and no explanation of what was taken off or why; just what appears to be the assumption that it was obvious.

Of course, there are other ways that stuff could be removed, say when the poster changes his/her mind and does it themselves.

This thread is such a hoot!  ANYONE can shoot in the WSU Winter League Postal or the NRC bench matches.  All you have to be a member of is the human race.  You don't have to be part of a WSU club or anything.  Heck, some ASSRA members shoot the match - and quite well I might add.

I'd be happy to run the ASSRA .22 offhand postal since I'm doing the WSU one right now anyway.  But, of course, I'm not a member so why should I contribute to hosting a match I cannot shoot?  Dang, that members-only thing comes around to bite ya in the ass some times...

Toodles...

Brent,

  What do I have to do. Pay your dues so you can run the ASSRA .22 Postal? Let me know and the check will be in the mail!

I have been going over the costs of a CF Offhand Postal match as outlined in the rule book this morning trying to see what we can get away with for fees.
It looks as if I will be getting it going ASAP

I would like to get an official Okie Dokie from the board for a 22 RF bench  100yd and 200 yd Postal and a CF 100 yd and 200 yd postals.

I have thought over a non member  postal also same as above but no perks like prizes/certificates etc.

The 200 yd targets will be a bigger expense is all

Have to see what goes on.

But the written up CF offhand postal is in the book all I have to do is get a OK from the board to host it as the PSM.



Most depends on participation on all, never hurts to give it a shot.

From one curmudgeon to another, you know better than to listen to grapevines.  And I haven't threatened anybody with anything, so I'm definitely lagging behind in the meanie department.   

Anyway, it's all a moot point as there is no way they will allow the postals to be open to nonmembers.  It would require a meeting and agreement of the EG insiders.

Brent

Shooter, Tenx and I are on the same page.  He ran the WSU match the last two years and I took over this year.  I think you might have misread his post.

As for the ASSRA, I used to be a member.  The reasons that I'm not now are well known to the few that matter.  I won't rehash them here.   

As I said, I'm willing to help the sport grow just fine by hosting one of these postals if the postals are open to nonmembers and they don't charge a mint (to fund EG) to do it.  They can take or leave the offer.

Brent

Fellows you just don`t get it!
First off I`m the Schuetzen Meister of  the ASSRA! And it is by job to give everyone a equal chance! Now unfortunately people don`t come with "HONEST" or "CHEATER" tatooed on their forehead! So I have to figure everyone is trying to cheat!
Now before I go any farther I want to say personally I trust each and ever one of you! But as the Schuetzen Meister I don`t!
Now when Pete called me and ask about witness for his targets, I told him to shoot and send them in! Because for one this was telling me he was "HONEST" or he wouldn`t have called and ask! He would have just went ahead and shoot and sign the witness!
Here I was with a man that wanted to shoot the postal match what was I to do? Say sorry you can`t!
Pete pride would not let him shoot them!
I`m sorry if I did offended anyone!
But fellows I live in the real world!
Jim

Jim, if you live "in the real world", then you know that if a guy is going to cheat, then witness signatures mean nothing. A cheater would just sign two fictitious names, or have two of his cheatin' buddies sign the target.
To assume everyone is a cheater is like the cop who thinks everyone is guilty until they prove they are innocent. I think the group of gentlemen here are above average, and I'd like to think there are very few cheaters among the ASSRA shooters.
But maybe I'm naive.-Vall

Jim is just telling you what he thinks of ya'll.  I don't believe that it has to be that way through out the ASSRA, but a handful of people at the top make damn sure you know your place.   

Brent

Shooter,

The revision of the rule book you mention is the latest update. That's why I said it was out of date. Maybe you and I are not on the same page. Anything 6 years old is out of date in this day and age.

  If I get a past post on here correctly they will soon be issuing a new update.

  What I said about the WSU and the League are correct. If you want to join the WSU you have to do so as a member of a club.

  You do not have to be a member of any organization to shoot the WSU Winter League. It is open to all comers.

  The only requirement is that you form a 3 man team to shoot it since it is a team event. This team can be made up of any human being that resides on this planet.

  Really. I wish you'd get on the WSU web site and look this all up. When you have done so then we can talk in a sane manner. Really... I think all you're trying to do is start an argument on here. I only have an 8th grade education but I'm getting what's said.

The rule book of the ASSRA has been under scrutiny.  A couple of rules committees have been going to suggest changes for a couple years, just nothing has been done yet.

Sometimes thing run slower than we'd like.

Some of the suggestions I have seen help clear up many of the rules, and some of the older rules removed.

Hopefully they can be finalized soon.

Shooter,

  You're sorry I feel and think the way I do?!? How condescending of you Sir.

  Of course you can subscribe to any Forum you like. But if you wish to talk intelligently on a subject it behooves you to at least get the other side of the issue.

  There is nothing complicated about the WSU's web site and it's very easy to find the info I suggested. If you can't find it let me know and I'll post a point and click entry to that info.

  I gather then that you didn't "point & click" the address to Brent's web site I posted so you could see how the WSU Winter League was set up? It would have showed you immediately that it was a three person league spread out over 10 weeks, with the scores for each team, and each individual score, the teams overall ranking at any given point, plus a list of those who had shot 250's. Plus some stuff I'm sure I've forgotten offhand.

  I gather from your comments that you think all other organizations think they are better than the ASSRA. I would disagree with that. I don't know why those who formed the ISSA split off from the ASSRA, but the WSU has nothing against the ASSRA. In fact I, and many others belong to both. If you'd look them over you'd find they mostly complement each other. About the only difference is that the WSU wants to hold to a more rigid interpretation of how it was done in the "Golden Age" of Schuetzen. Kind of like the difference between NCOWS and SASS. Nothing wrong with either, and you can pick the one that suits you the best.

  Personally I think the WSU has shot themselves in the foot by going to being a strictly offhand organization. But, I ain't on the BoD so I'll show my displeasure by letting my feet do the talking. I don't necessarily agree with  how the ASSRA handles some things but they fit my way of thinking better.

  I haven't got a clue about the ISSA.

This has been an interesting and some what "bumpy" thread. 
I've shot ASSRA postal matches in the past and would like to shoot in them again. If things get lined out and going, I'll participate.
I enjoy the shooting I don't enter matches based on the "prize pool". I like most, attempt to shoot "possibles" one hole in the center of the 25 ring. In the end it all comes down the individual effort. If you cheat your cheating yourself first and foremost. 
In the end when it's all over and you get a trinket for your dishonest effort, was the trinket worth it?
I think not.
I believe that the folks here in this "brother hood" have much greater self respect. 
Hopefully things can get rolling and we can spend our time on the range making holes in the 25 ring instead of typing on this darn thread.

tenx,

I did not intend my comment to be condescending, if that's what you thought it was, well I guess that's the way you think, so be it,  As far as me talking intelligently on a subject, sorry I cant do that very well because I'm still learning all this stuff about ASSRA, bottom line, I'm NOT INTERESTED in the other side of any "issues" unless there ASSRA issues. I tried to make it clear that I'm trying to learn as much about the association "I joined".  Now, is there any part of this that you don't  understand ?.

 "I gather from your comments that you think all other organizations think they are better than the ASSRA."

 I have no idea what your talking about, I don't know anything about the other associations to make any comments about them, I only know what you and some others have said about them on this ASSRA site, and like I've already said I have NO INTEREST in them, I am a ASSRA member, not a member of  WSU or any others. 

 Are you following me so far, If I'm typing to fast for you to understand what I'm saying I'll try to slow it down a bit. OK maybe that comment was not called for but I'm trying to make my point as simple as I can.

You gather that I didn't "point & click" the address to Brent's web site, you gathered correct, I'm NOT INTERESTED. If it has nothing to do with ASSRA. 

I can only do one association at a time, and at this time it's ASSRA. I see that your not happy with the way WSU is doing things, I could care less about what there doing, if in you think they shot themselves in the foot, don't waste your time telling me about it, I don't care, go tell someone that does.

Your saying something about the difference between NCOWS and SASS. and that there's nothing wrong with either, and to pick the one that suits me best, I don't know what those associations are and I don't want to know, I already picked the association that I think suits me best, I joined the ASSRA. 

  Are you "getting" this.

"I don't necessarily agree with  how the ASSRA handles some things but they fit my way of thinking better"

I'm so happy for you that ASSRA fits your way of "thinking", maybe with all your experience you could step up to the plate and "help" ASSRA with any thing you don't, as you said, "necessarily agree with" but please try to help within the polices of the ASSRA, not force your way of "thinking" on the ASSRA just because you and possibly only you or just a few others "think" your correct. It cant always be your way or no way, that's the way dictators think.

I see your still on the rule book thing,  in one of your post, in the same breath, I think,  your saying that the revision I have is the "latest update", then your saying that it's out of date ?, again I guess we are not on the same page. 

Please educate me, when does a "rule book" become out of date, how long does it take ? one year, two years, ?. I've been told by someone that should know that the book I have is the current one and it's the "only" one "in use" at this time, therefore I would think it's "in date" and will stay "in date"  till another revision comes out. 

 This came from one of the ASSRA officials, not just some guy on this forum, then again maybe I mis-understood what he said. 

This is starting to get a bit childish, dumb, and stupid. I can see from reading some of the messages that there are some guys that cause problems for ASSRA and are disrespectful to other members. lets try an put our efforts into making the ASSRA better for all the members, not just a few. 
 Shooter

tenx,
Thank You for understanding.
Shooter

What tbird1960 said, except the Houston part.

Bill

Guys A member from up north, WI
Has said he'd do the postals.

Marty is a good guy> Fair and very straight forward on things.

He is setting up the regular postals and a 100 yd bench postal also.


I surely hope you guys that said you wanted this do take part, and heck maybe some more guys too.

Just remember when the shoots are outlined, just bite the bullet and go by the guidlines,  ok?
Give stuff a chance and we'll have fun.

If there is no witness requirement I will join ASSRA and participate in the postal matches.

Hmm, no one ever considered me the smartest kid on the block, but here we have people that are saying "I'll do the work", we have lots of people that want to shoot- what's the big problem. Those that want to do the work, set the rules and lets getting shooting- we are burning valuable daylight. Remember how easy it was as kids to get things done- some one had a idea, all agreed and it happened, kids just may have something up on us adults?
Bob

Quote:


But who is gonna vouch for the Rev? Tell him a PK asked that!

I shot last year's WSU Winter League and it was fun, thanks Pete. So my team shot the ASSRA 22 Postal to continue the fun. I didn't finish but my friends did and have heard nothing about the Match after sending in their targets.
I shot the WSU Winter League this year and it was fun, thanks Brent. So the thread topic caught my eye for this year's ASSRA postal match. After reading the previous 4 pages and guessing at the contents of the deleted posts I think I'll just shut up. Having just renewed my membership for the coming year I'll take consolation in supporting E.G. in exchange for the magazine and pass on  the postal matches.

Duke

By the way Duke, 
There was only one post deleted, it was the nasty one about members maybe cheating in the Postal Matches. but it's not really gone, if you want to see it go to post # 16. So you didn't miss much.
Shooter

Gentlemen
As the clubs co-ordinator Marty is the guy that sends me most of the scores that I print in the Journal. I am assumeing that he will send the postal match scores to me also. As to timeing remember that the Journal isn't a newspaper, we have a lead time. By the time that you recieve a Journal the graphic artitst is composing the next one, while I am editing the articles ,scores and announcements for the one after that. That puts me about 4 months ahead of the magazine that you have in your hands. If a score comes in the day after I submit my stuff for compisition, it goes in the next Journal. To give you a better idea right now I am working on articles for the July / August Journal. I hope that clears up why a match that finishes in May isn't in the journal till fall.

40 Rod

I am not sure  when but do remember that John Campbell made a decision not to publish match results in the Journal. This resulted in much complaining and it took  quite a while after he left his position as editor to get them back in the Journal.
Cheers,
Laurie

Laurie,

   Thanks for the info! Wasn't trying to blame anyone. I can certainly see how many a slip could occur if several people have their hands in what gets published or not.

  Could have easily happened with that article I sent in. A coupla pictures weren't included and one that was included I never sent in, which was kind of a surprise.

Brent,

  Your idea is kind of what I was thinking of. This Forum would be a great place to really expand on what would appear in the Journal.

PETE

Boats
I'd take a paw print. Dogs never lie, people do but dogs never.

40 Rod

Pete will do what ever he wants for sure.  If it closes in May and March is already about spent time is short and may have to shoot them all on one day.

Boats

I guess I will be running the 50 foot indoor match.  Particulars in a new thread.
Marty

I think WE are ALL waiting for SOMEONE to VOLUNTEER to do the WORK.

Quote:


I will post something to this site after 1st of April.  I will be running both offhand and benchrest 100 shot matches.
Marty