I have a ruger No.1 in 45-70 that I am thinking of making into a Schuetzen rifle. Is this feasable? I was thinking along the lines of a short cartridge like the 357-.32 or whatever might work. Who does barreling on a No 1?Where would I get a reamer and reloading info? I have Charlie Dells book and have just rediscovered it since my big move (from Montana). and am excited about building and shooting something small and accurate. Any advice would be appreciated. Mori

Humbolt
I would use Willis Gregory. He is on this list as singleshot.
40 Rod

Hi tenx,
I would be interested in any info you may have on setting up a Ruger # 1 into a Schuetzen rifle, also any info on converting it into a short 30 caliber of some type. Thanks for any help you may give.
  Shooter

I wonder if the ASSRA Archives might have copies of those articles as well?

Might be worth a call to the Archivist..   

Paul F.

I'm not used to thinking of the Archives either

Trying to get in the habit...

Paul F.

Fred,

  I might tend to agree with you that a CPA might be better, but, I was giving advice on a gun that Mori wanted to work with.

  The Ruger #1 & #3 were never designe,d or intended to be, the ultimate in a target rifle. They are excellent for what they were designed for, but to make them suitable for competitive target use they have to be worked on. Kind of like taking a stock Govt .45 and expecting to win matches with it. They need a lot of fine tuning by a top gunsmith to make them so.

  As for no one using #1's or 3's I don't know of anyone using one but there have been a few comments on here of quite a few using them. I believe EG was mentioned!

  As for lock time...... Can you lead me to a site that shows the CPA as being faster than a Ruger? Offhand I would think the Ruger would have the shorter lock time if for no other reason that it doesn't have an external hammer and a lot shorter "throw". I believe the Borchardt is considered to have a fast lock time, and it's the reason there have been modifications to High Walls to make them hammerless. Wasn't there a picture of one such on the cover of last months Precision Shooting?

  Part of the Rugers problem is that it does have a heavy mainspring in order to achieve as fast a lock time as possible and is one of the problems that need to be addressed because of the vibration it sets up. Before you could almost replace the whole gut works one of the "cures" was to put a Lead sleeve around it. Haven't heard of anyone doing it lately but might still be an option.

tenx;

One also should consider one's competition when deciding how much to invest in a rifle..
I'm one of Mr Humboldt's competition... and trust me when I say that as a group, we can all be beaten by a decent Ruger #1 by anyone with a modicum of practice.

Now, in couple more years of practice, some of us might actually see a difference in our local iron-sight offhand matches.. but A guy could bring  home a lot of trophies with a Ruger by then!

That reminds me... I gotta cast some 8.15x46R bullets pretty soon!

Paul F.

John- Thanks for the plug, but until I can retire from this job I have I will not be taking on any more complete builds- just do not have enough time!

Mori- I think the #1/3 are an excellent platform for schuetzen. I have built at least a dozen of them! It does have some limitations, but they can be overcome. The maximum barrel diameter is 1.200" (unless the hanger is removed), which will allow about 1-1/8" octagon barrels to be fitted. The Zika lightened speed hammer combined with a Wolff mainspring significantly decreases the lock time. A Moyers trigger regains the sear engagement adjustment lost to lawyering early on in the #1s career, and the Kepplinger set triggers are very nice. I have found (as did DeHaas) that each rifle is a law unto itself when it comes to the forend/hanger question. It is easy to place a set screw in the front of the hanger to bear against the barrel and allow the forend to be floated. Almost all of them come with excellent wood and a hook can made to attach to the sling swivel mounting hole for offhand, or a butt sled for benchrest. Wayne Swartz built a lot of them into schuetzen rifles also and it NOT uncommon to find several on the line at EG or many other matches. One can be built into a schuetzen for less than the cost of a CPA, especially if one can do any of the work himself.

I don't have the skills on a stopwatch to measure the lock time either, but before I put a Zika hammer into my #3, I did a "bench test" of setting the rifle up on sandbags, sighting at a 1" square target paster at 100 yards, and dry firing at the paster, without touching anything but the trigger and back of the trigger guard.  After each "shot", I checked the crosshair position compared to the paster, and wrote it down.  After changing the hammer, I repeated the test, and found significantly less rifle movement (about half!) than with the original hammer.  Again, no ammo, just dry firing.  Less rifle movement due to the internal hammer swatting the transfer bar has to mean better potential for accuracy when doing it for real.  When I do my part right, this rifle is now capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards for five shots.  Problem is, my wind reading skills are less than great!   

David
Montezuma, IA

Mori,

  Nothing wrong with that project either, altho if what I hear is true you'll be a long time waiting to get the barrel you propose from Badger. I would say your best bet would be to check with Buffalo Arms and see if they have a .38 cal. barrel in stock, and take what you can get. Either that or order one from one of the other custom barrel makers. My Kreiger barrel took 12 weeks.

Hi guys, 
My thanks to tenx for pointing me in the right direction for what issues to look for on setting up the # 1 for target shooting. I'm always looking for new or different ways to do things like this.  I already have a few # 1's and it does not seem to be a problem to set them up for shooting good groups, most times under 1/2 inch, of course this is with jacketed bullets, never had a reason to shoot just lead bullets till now. 

The # 1 action seems to have what it takes to make a good shooter, just about straight firing pin hit, stock through bolt etc. and an easy to install speed hammer, speed mainspring, and set trigger is available. So far all I've ever done is change out the factory hammer, mainspring, and trigger and it seems ready to go shoot small groups. 

I cant see how any other action such as a Winchester Hi wall, Stevens 44 1/2, CPA, Ballard, or a Rolling Block etc. could be a better or a more accurate action to work with than the Ruger # 1. Maybe I'm missing something here but don't know what ?.

One thing that I have read about the # 1 action over and over again is the problem of the mainspring hanger contacting the barrel and that it should be free floated ?.

I've had more than a few new # 1's and have never seen one that the hanger was even close to the barrel, all of them seem to be well "free floated" from the barrel right from the factory, or am I missing something in this area also ?. 
Shooter

Sorry guys but I have to disagree. If you have a Ruger rifle on hand you could sell it and defray the cost of a match ready CPA.  Looking at it that way the money is about the same.   Of course I have spent more on a gun than it's worth many times so cannot criticize anyone for wanting to tinker.

As far as performance, looking at ISSA and CBA's national match equipment list as well as matches I shoot in person you hardly see a Ruger. Lots of CPA's, Cody Ballards High Walls etc. well up in the placing.  Lots of Millers too but as a practical mater they are not obtainable. I don't doubt Rugers are on the line at Etna Green but have they won anything ?

As they say you pays your money and takes your choice.

Boats

Someone needs to tell Andy Zahornacy that Rugers will not shoot!!!
Because he clean our clock with his!
I don`t think he knows ruger don`t shoot!!

Andy has admitted to me that  "Rugers won't shoot"; after he cleans my clock with his.

If "schuetzen" is offhand shooting, then I note that in 20 years I've not
seen a single top shooter using a Rugar offhand. Most use the Miller though notably Jim Luke and Steve Garbe shoot Ballards. Bench shooting
is a separate and distinct sport and within it's confines apparently the Rugar is equal to any.  Whatever, just have fun and shoot your best.

Fred

Modern schuetzen is both bench and offhand competition.  One reason you don't see too many Rugers is that they do take tuning and a quicker lock time to make them competitive...but in the past few years, the Zika hammer and various triggers have addressed some of those problems.  Another reason for not that many Rugers has to do with traditionalists versus modern rifle shooters.  For modern designs, there are faster lock time actions, even compared to a Ruger with a Zika hammer, such as the Miller.  The advantage to a Ruger is that they are very inexpensive, when compared to a Miller, even with tuning and new parts.  Rugers are also readily available.   

I would personally love to own a CPA, but I had a Ruger No. 3 in my rack, and was able to do my own work to suit my needs and budget, a little bit at a time.    Just remember, you've got to do what works for you.  If the Ruger is already in your rack, you're probably 30-40% of the way there.  Shoot it with the existing barrel/caliber and plain base cast bullets and get the skills up on casting bullets and developing loads, then see if the bug is still biting.  If it is, you can do the job a bit at a time.  It will cost more in the long run than giving it to a smith to do the whole conversion, but it can be done in affordable chunks.  Start with hammer/trigger/action tuning.  Then a new barrel using the existing wood, then new wood.   

Just my thoughts...

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA

Shooter,

  Yes. Originally Schuetzen was strictly offhand, but today as David points out it is both an offhand and bench venue. Schuetzen, in the English translation just means "shooting" so it really covers all shooting. Probably a better term today would be Single Shot Shooting.

  In this country it hasn't been strictly offhand since before the ASSRA was formed back in the 40's(?). I'd say that if we would restrict Schuetzen matches to offhand there wouldn't be any matches, in short order. Well over 3/4ths of the SS matches held today are comprised of bench matches. I think our club is normal in that regard in that we have 9 bench and 4 offhand matches. At that there are only about 4 or 5 out of 20 some members that will shoot them. I don't think we have one member that shoots offhand exclusively.

  It's going to be interesting to see how the WSU, with their new strictly offhand rules matches does in the future. Personally I think they stuck their foot in it.... but I've been wrong before.

Ok,
I think I get it now, in the beginning there was earth, then came Schuetzen, that was originally an off hand shooting event, then came the ASSRA in the late 1940's and set up some rules allowing "Schuetzen" rifles to be shot off a bench. English translation of Schuetzen just means "shooting" so it really covers all shooting, not just off hand.

Now that makes sense. So the official rule book allows all the Schuetzen rifles to be shot off a bench and anyone thinking otherwise is either just wrong, living way back in the past, or hasn't really read the current rule book. 

Sure is a lot of Info in this group but can see that a lot of it is just what some guys "think" and not really the way it is, and that can be very mis-leading to a new member. 

tenx has said,

"I'd say that if we would restrict Schuetzen matches to offhand there wouldn't be any matches, in short order. Well over 3/4ths of the SS matches held today are comprised of bench matches".

If what tenx said is true I think it's odd that according to the ASSRA rule book the association has off hand postal matches for 25 % of the membership but for some reason does not have bench rest postal matches for the other 75 % of the membership, anyone know the reasoning behind this ???.

I'm involved in some other Associations that have postal matches ( not Schuetzen ) and we always seem to have 300 + members shooting in them every year from all parts of the country. 

Seems like it could be a win-win situation for the ASSRA and it's members if postal bench rest matches were allowed as an official event, anyone know who to talk to about getting something like this in the rule book as official matches like the off hand postal matches are, this way maybe 75 % of the other shooters from around the country could participate in the shooting events.
Shooter

Jeff;
       The point you make about shooting a "well tuned Ruger #1" is well taken--the problem is I've seen exactly 1 well tuned Ruger in my life.  Maybe someone will eventually put a "well tuned Ruger" in everone's hand.  I'll stand on my first statement that when we figure cost, availability, etc. of the Ruger #1 singleshot there has to be a reason we don't see more on the line.  I have wished for years that someone would make a stricker fired breechblock for the Ruger so everone could buy or build a less expensive competive Schuetzen offhand or benchrest rifle.   leadball

Shooter,

See if you can find out how many shooters shoot/shot the ASSRA's Postal Match this past Winter, or in previous years for that matter. I think if you find that 10 shot it in any given year it'd be about avarage. That's with about 2000 members, IIRC. Some of us here shot that and unless I missed something I never saw hide nor hair of it published in The Journal as had been previously done.

  The big problem with offhand matches is that "old guys" are to shaky to do well at it, and since the average age of an ASSRA member is around 60 yrs. old, they go with bench shooting. It take a considerable amount of practice to become good at offhand. Something not many have the time or inclination to do.

  The plain fact is that at most clubs if all you shot was offhand not many would show up. If you shot just bench you'd have to beat them off with a stick! Maybe I should qualify that and say most clubs East of the Missouri River.

That's a bummer!

Those silhouette shooters must be afraid of the brutal recoil of such shoulder-busters like the .32-40..    

That reminds me... I gotta get some zero's for a .22 silhouette match in a month or so...

I'll shoot just about anything and like it 

Paul F.

There are two very quick answers to your questions Shooter_1.  The first is that postal matches are not a very large emphasis in ASSRA, that is, postal matches of any kind are not all that popular.  Secondly, this being a volunteer organization for most all of its events, including the postal matches, there has not been a person who has stepped up and volunteered to organize, publicize, run, and otherwise administer these matches which have not been strongly asked for.

If there is sufficient interest, and if someone wants to volunteer to do the not-insignificant work of running a bench postal match, I am sure that that person and their interested group would receive nothing but approval from the officers of ASSRA.  This is JMHO, but I am a former member of the BofD, and have restarted a local match here in Central VA, so I know a little of which I speak.  Don't get put off by the statements above.  If you are seriously interested in such a match, step up and organize it.  Believe it or not, there is always "room at the top" of the match organizing (and most other work involving) activities in ASSRA as well as other volunteer groups.

Charlie Shaeff
the Green Frog

PS  I hope to be one of those "old guy" shooters one day.  I frequently see some rickety old specimen of humanity assume a rock-steady offhand position just long enough for a single shot (at a time) and clean my clock with his scores! 

frederick;
               I think your right-on in your last post,  offhand shooting is just to hard and challenging for most younger shooters, they can't get instant gratification because offhand shooting takes a lot of practice.  Health reasons prevent some shooters from shooting offhand but, mostly they are just not interested for the reasons mentioned above.   leadball

Thanks for responding with some answers Green Frog.
You say that, postal matches are not a very large emphasis in ASSRA, that is, postal matches of any kind are not all that popular.   

Anyone know why this is ?. has there been any effort  to promote the offhand postal matches ?,  has there ever been bench rest postal matches ?.

Maybe the leadership should start thinking about doing more to promote postal matches, especially with the rising cost of everything, like travel and the cost of Gas.

I would think that any shooting association that has 2000 or so members would have at least a 100 + that would shoot postal matches if they were promoted, interesting, and set up as official  ASSRA matches.

Secondly, you say, this being a volunteer organization for most all of its events, including the postal matches, there has not been a person who has stepped up and volunteered to organize, publicize, run, and otherwise administer these matches which have not been strongly asked for. 

As far as the ASSRA being a volunteer organization, so are other associations, the one that I mentioned that has over 300 members shooting postal matches is 100 % volunteer, plus has shoulder to shoulder matches in different parts of the country.

As far as waiting for someone to step up and do something, that's like putting the horse behind the cart.  I believe the "word" has to come from the top that ASSRA needs someone to run certain events that they have in there program, most members will not step up and do things on there own for fear of doing something wrong, that's what good leadership is for, direct the programs and the members to the events. It's worked like that in just about all shooting associations for over 100 years.

If what tenx has said is so, that if it was offhand matches only the sport would die, 
and if what Green Frog is saying is so, that postal matches are not a very large emphasis in ASSRA and that, postal matches of any kind are not all that popular. 
My next question is why ?, they seem to be very popular in other shooting association, why not this one ?.

Again, if what tenx said is so, there should be a larger group of members wanting to shoot postal bench matches than there is the postal offhand matches, if they were available as an official ASSRA event.

I may be a new guy to this type of shooting, but I'm not new to volunteer shooting associations or to the shooting sports, been doing it for about 50 years, all offhand events by the way, very little bench rest.

I realize that none of this can be done by just one volunteer, it takes at least a handful of concerned and interested guys that want to see this sport grow, and from what has been said by guys like:

tenx,
"I agree with you entirely, but at most clubs if the matches were entirely offhand they'd go out of business very quickly. Plus not many will drive a 100 miles or so just to shoot offhand. Around here I doubt if they'd drive 25 miles."
 
J.D. Steele:
"I don't know a single soul in our 600-member club or for that matter within a 150-mile radius who would walk across the street to even witness a real Schuetzen match of any type."

tenx, again:
The plain fact is that at most clubs if all you shot was offhand not many would show up. If you shot just bench you'd have to beat them off with a stick! Maybe I should qualify that and say most clubs East of the Missouri River."

It seems to me that something is very wrong with this picture. I may be new to this Schuetzen shooting sport thing and don't know a lot about it but I think it's a very worthwhile shooting sport and should be promoted.

Everyone knows by now that I'm new at this but I'm willing to volunteer my time to help anyone that has the experience in this sport that wants to see it grow.

Does anyone know how a member gets to put something on the agenda of the next annual ASSRA meeting ?.
Shooter

Shooter,

  Let me put this true scenario to you....

  If you do a search here on shooting a .22 offhand Winter league you should come up with a thread or two on the subject. What happened was that there was a lot of talk, with everyone having their own idea of what it should consist of. Nothing ever came of it. This takes place every coupla years with the same results.

   Now if you'll go to this web site you'll see what can be done as far as shooting a league goes. 

    (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

  What's the difference? There was a lot of talk about doing it, the same as here, until someone took control of the thing three years ago and said "This is how it's gonna be. If you want to shoot fine. If not we'll see you around!". That was me! Brent's running it this year. I haven't counted the number of teams, or shooters, but they have been from all over the country and even one team from Jolly Old England.

  You can't have 14 guys with 14 different ideas on how to run a match. As like in the past nothing will get done. Like Froggy says. Someone has to volunteer and say I'll run it and here are the rules.

  Whoever takes the job on will find, as I did, that the first year is the toughest. With the help of Marty Stenback in re-checking my scoring we managed to "Get 'er Done!". After I got everybody "bent" around to how I wanted it done the 2nd year things ran pretty smoothly. Brent will have to answer on how things are going this year. I'll have to check back on my web site to see but I think each year there have more shooters than the last.

  I will agree with you that any Postal or Internet league type match should be run by someone in authority at the ASSRA. At the least say they'll sponsor it, like the WSU is doing. Maybe throw in a medal or something for the first 3 or 4 individuals/teams. But why should that have to be the only criteria for putting on such matches? The whole idea is to have some fun!

Brent 

I don't shoot the winter league, it did not work for our widely spread shooter base. Winter time at home I shoot NRA rules Silhouette and drive up to Pennsylvania and shoot shoulder to shoulder Schuetzen gallery.

Tried to get some postal matches going several years ago but was frustrated by the rules and have no way to change them.  No problem with the labor but don't want to get involved in the politics. Give us a set of rules that widely spread shooters can use and would be happy to volunteer. 
'

Boats

Brent I suspect the key is having rules that allow widely spaced shooters to compete.  In Virginia we tried to work it out several years ago but it would have required driving to a central location. We had that about worked out  Our thought was to shoot a seasons worth at one session but as I recall that was not allowed under the rules either.

Labor is one thing but the structure has to be right before it's going to be a sucess

Boats

Boats,
New guy here, about the Postal Matches. I checked the Postal Match rules and cant find anything that would be frustrating, or what would need changing. Please let us know why you were so frustrated by the rules the way they are written. 

Section 3.06 Rimfire, and Section 3.07 Centerfire,  as written seems very easy to live with. Being new I may be missing something but from shooting in Postal matches in other shooting associations I don't see anything wrong with the rules as written. 

The only problem I see that's not compatible or fair to all members that want to shoot is the fact that the ASSRA seems to discriminate ( probably not a good word to use but I don't know what else to call it ) against members that may want to shoot Postal bench rest, they seem to think that Postal offhand matches are ok as they are written up in the rule book but not Postal bench rest. This may not have been done intentionally and may have been just an oversight on there part. It seems un-balanced as far as having fair and balanced shooting events that all members can participate in.

You say that you were frustrated by the rules and have no way to change them. 
Are you saying that once the rules are made up they are carved in stone, never to be modified for all eternity ?. I don't think so, I've been told that a new rule book is being written this year, maybe now is the time to give the people involved in such things your input. I know one of the things that I would like to see is Postal bench matches in the new rule book, if for no other reason that this would allow all members to shoot in both types of Postal events, offhand and bench. I just don't know who to talk to about getting this into the new rule book. 

Again, I'm willing to volunteer and help in any way I can, but this should be an official ASSRA event, same as the "official" Postal offhand events, not just something made up by someone that feels like doing it there way that may not conform to the current rules. If a do it anyway you want attitude is allowed that may be like letting the inmates run the, well I think you get the idea.
Shooter