This is part of a posting from the Wyoming Schuetzen Union Forum.

Fred
 
Center Shot 61 by Steve Garbe 

In this installment of the Center Shot I would like to talk about a subject that has been “simmering” for a couple of years. It involves the definition of a “Schuetzen” match. 
The Schuetzen style of shooting has always been an offhand discipline. That being said, I know that there were some matches, mostly in the German communities in Texas, where the rules allowed the rifle to be rested while the shooter stood in an upright position. I think we could agree that these matches were the exception and not the rule. Generally speaking, both in Europe and America, Schuetzen shooting was a strictly offhand affair. 
So why do we now have bench rest matches incorporated into the aggregate on almost all our Schuetzen matches? The answer that I have received from most “old-timers” was that when the Coors matches started back in the 1980’s, bench matches were thought to be necessary in order to attract a sufficient number of contestants. It seems that bench shooting has also been part of the ASSRA’s shooting programs although they are generally not referred to as specifically “Schuetzen” matches. Members of both associations have assured me that bench shooting was necessary to insure participation. And, both the International Single Shot Association and the American Single Shot Rifle Association do not have the word “Schuetzen” in their names. 
I don’t think that anyone could argue against the statement that rest shooting and offhand shooting are two distinctly different disciplines. Go to any Schuetzen match and look at the difference between the benchrest and offhand rifles. Serious competitors have a completely different rifle for each discipline. The problem that I see is, historically, Schuetzen means “offhand”; and if we are to pay attention to history, we need to keep it “offhand”. When a competitor wins an overall aggregate in today’s Schuetzen matches he may not have been the best offhand shot…he may simply have turned in the best bench score and good, but not the best, offhand score. If there are several excellent offhand shooters present at a match, many times the winner is decided by the benchrest score. I think that this is in contradiction to the historical definition of a Schuetzen match. It has often been said that offhand shooting tests the man and benchrest shooting tests the rifle. Anyone who has competed in both matches will tell you that offhand and benchrest shooting are drastically different and require their own set of abilities. 
This is not to say that there weren’t rest matches in the old days. Quite to the contrary, there were many organizations that were focused strictly on benchrest shooting. The National Rifle Club, the Nypano Rifle Club and the Jamestown Rifle Club were but a few of the organizations whose main interest was in rest rifle shooting. Rest rifle shooting, in many different guises- turkey shoots, chunk rifle shooting, double rest matches- were uniquely American shooting sports and as such, a big part of our shooting heritage. Many present-day black powder shooters have not the slightest clue about the old rest rifle matches and shooters. Hopefully, through the efforts of individuals associated with the National Rifle Club, that will change. 

With the resurrection of the National Rifle Club and it’s focus on rest rifle shooting, it begs the question that the Wyoming Schuetzen Union should become truly a “Schuetzen” organization. In several phone meetings with the Schuetzen Board of the Wyoming Schuetzen Union the decision was reached to focus the Wyoming Schuetzen Union on offhand shooting in its sanctioned competition. Pat Bowland, Schuetzenmeister for the Bitterroot Schuetzen Society has also informed me that the Montana State Schuetzen Championship for 2008 may be a strictly offhand match. The National Rifle Club will host the benchrest competition that has in the past been associated with the WSU Wyoming State Championship and will award NRC Wyoming State Championship medals. Combining offhand and benchrest scores to determine an overall Schuetzen winner will be a thing of the past at Cody. The National Rifle Club will be the sanctioning body for benchrest matches at the National Championships at Raton, New Mexico as well. 
In conversations with the principals of the National Rifle Club, it was decided that the addition of an “Open Class” to the NRC rules would serve the function of providing for a venue under which our current bench rest rifles could be shot. The NRC’s “Traditional Class” will still adhere to their “pre-December 31, 1900” technology cut-off. However, the new Open Class will allow equipment, sights, powder and single shot rifles produced after that date. The “any plain-base lead bullet” rule will be common to both classes, as well as the definition of “Time Rules” when they are used in a match. 
As I said, this issue is one that has been brought up frequently over the years and I think that the Wyoming Schuetzen Union is leading the way on returning Schuetzen matches to what they were originally- a test of marksmanship from the offhand position. I’m well aware that other single shot rifle organizations will probably not agree w

I agree that there should not be an aggregate of offhand and bench rest scores. This idea was started at the Coors matches and harkens back to how the NMLRA holds matches. I think you will find that in the old days , like the ASSRA, they kept offhand and bench rest separate. I am thinking of the shooters at Walnut Hill where rest matches were a big part of their program.

Paul - is that weenies or "winners" - ha - just couldn't resist - you have a good day now - I just might be a weenie though - freezing here in Indiana - thinking seriously of moving to TN. - the rimfire - cdpersons

Have shot a fair amount of "Schuetzen' out of the country were it's mostly Air Rifles and Beer all offhand. With most clubs it's more about singing the old songs than shooting although some of the guys are pretty good.  Found I can't shoot well when drinking, probably a good thing.

While I only shoot offhand can see we need bench rest to keep the sport alive though. Few offhand shooters on the East Coast in Schuetzen.  A whole lot of them in NRA rules Silhouette and some very good.  I am glad the Wyoming shooters have such an offhand following and wish them well.  Wish there was more offhand Schuetzen competition east of the Mississippi.

It is sort of unfair to agg offhand and bench they are totaly different One of our very good shooters seems to me to always suffer at the Coors due to his bench scores. He does not own a bench rifle and never shoots bench. If it was scored offhand separate he may have won some of those matches.

Boats

I agree with Jim on bench-offhand aggs. You have to be a pretty good offhand shot, no matter how good you are on the bench, or you're just out of the game! A mediocre offhand shot drops so many points on that leg, that he can't possibly make it up on the bench leg.

Been there done that. You can lose the match from either side, bench or offhand. I agree that it is easier to have a good offhand shooter come out on top, but a bad bench can sure kill you. There are ussually allot higher precent of lost points. They say in position smallbore, prone won't win you a match but it sure can lose you one.

"They're just so SERIOUS all the time! "

Hey Paul F, you've obviously never watched ME shoot benchrest.  Frogs don't have a single serious bone anywhere in their little amphibian bodies!  

Then again, if you want to see serious, you should see me sweating trying to get a few shots to actually score on an offhand target.  That's serious (or at least intense.)  I'm MUCH more relaxed sitting down!

Froggie

In the aggregate, the best offhand shooters will win the agg.  Who cares as long as we get to shoot and be with our friends. And enemy's. 
If your having a bad day you can always shoot someone's wind flag. 


                                                                               Joe.

Offhand is no more difficult than hitting a golf ball or casting fly rods.  Like those sports it can be enjoyed at any age.  You have to adjust equipment as your fitness level changes but don't need to give the sport up as long as you can stand.

The difficulty shooting offhand is it's largely self taught while other sports have instruction available. Anyone exposed to a formal program or coaching at some point has an advantage.  There are natural shots but generally they were involved in competing with lots of examples to watch. Informal coaching.

I can only speculate on whats happening in Wyoming but expect the fact they are running offhand matches makes it attractive and new or more likely cross over shooters come into the sport. Success builds on success.

Boats

Bnice,

No agenda whatsoever, other than focusing a Schuetzen organization on offhand shooting and attempting to revive and preserve a historic old club.

I don't feel that having more shooting organizations is a bad thing at all unless one requires that you cannot belong to any other. This is not the case.

It was always somewhat shocking to me that the average single shot shooter had no idea who Horace Warner or H.V. Perry was...or how to string-measure a target. We have had many old-time shooters dedicate a lot of personal time with excellent records shot to the sport of rest shooting. It be a shame if the old-style rest shooting died on the vine when it is so simple to revive...especially when we have the talented bench-rest shooters today that we have.

I see more shooting organizations as a strength rather than a weakness...more shooting, more shooters. The single shot community is diverse in it's interests and by having associations that are focused on specific aspects we have more appeal collectively to the whole. The problem is not shooters...the problem is getting people to do the work. We have had excellent support in that regard in the Wyoming Schuetzen Union and have people who have stepped up to do the work associated with the National Rifle Club. It takes some initial effort to get an association going and these two have been very fortunate in that regard.

Gute Ziele,

Steve Garbe

gents,
goodmorning, Here in so tx we have the newbraunfels schuetzen verein. == oldest in existance rifle club in the country. established july 4 1849.
my understanding is that at first this was an awful hand shoot that later turned into  both oh and a standing stairstep rest. which we now only shoot at 100 yards  either iron or scope.
we allow any rifle of either single shjot or a bolt gun. with a maximum of 5 shots allowed at one standing. 
there are also some clubs in the fredericksburg area that shoot at 200 yards both centerfire, and rimfire iron sights only on a standing stairstep rest.
the newbraunfels season should be starting in late march and there are always rifles available to shoot. not to mention food and beer.
A number of the memebers of this club also shoot the assra, and the issa and the wsu.
personally I think y'all are getting things too complicated and like some one said i do nont care about aggregates scores just wantn to have fun with friends.
cheers
irish

I live in Montana and have shot WSU matches. Because of this change to offhand matches only I will no longer shoot with WSU. I will continue to shoot at the ASSRA matches in Missoula , where I have spent many enjoyable years shooting Schuetzen combination matches. WSU is making a BIG mistake in my opinion.

gents,
goodmorning!
have to say that I agree with y'all that if it was an offhand type match it would not be worth driving to.I do not even shoot offhand at the nbsv matches anymore.
I think the main idea of today's rifle clubs is to encourage new members, particularily with children. not to run them off because one person decides he wants things to run his way.
I feel that the assra, issa have been around for a while and while all organizations have problems. they will be here for a while longer. i shot at mexia this weekend and we shot to a set of the wsu rules. so i had a target with 9 shots on it (iron) so i shot it again. the best thing that could happen is for all of the groups to standarise the rules write them in stone and quit trying to change them.
I have shown up at a match down here and not been able to shoot because a group had gotten togther the day before and made up some new rules!
As for thewsu. well as i put it this is texas not wyoming and why would i want to shoot any thing different than i do now?
cheers
irish

I find it most challanging to shoot off hand.  It's my worst position; but for THAT reason I shoot it - to build my skills.  Bench is ok, but with the .458WM off-hand is much to my preference.

Quote:


But that cooler of beer after the match makes up for all the frustrations!  That pause with friends suffering through the same challenges - that tidbit of information that will be the KEY to doing better NEXT time!

Any given issue can be an insurmoutable challange - we need to look at the process and enjoy it!

AND there are ALWAYS the few rugged individuals that STILL work at being able to put together a match-quality gun for under $(several hundered) - and don't we all spend bunch trying to do it too? 

Because maybe he likes shooting single shots with plain base lead bullet!

I keep seeing we are not after ultimate accuracy, I think we are. Accuracy can be a relative term and I think most all of us are striving to get the ultimate out our game and equipment. I know I am, I would not be happy with a gun that shot 3 inches at 200 yards when I know it can do better. So please speak for yourself about what we are striving for in this game. I love to shoot but I have a competitive side to my personallity that is always wanting to do better.

goodmorning gents.
as it stands now I can shoot about 6 single shot matches each year here locally. since this wsu has come along it has just meant that I have to if i want to carry more stuff to the range.
things wee pretty simple prior to it inception, go shoot what you wante and go home. what was wrong with that?
I know that there are a lot of people out there that just have to win. but encouraging NEW SHOOTERS is also trying to keep it simple.
if i wanted more rules I would and could make up all i wanted it.
KEEP IT SIMPLE ONE SET OF RULES
irish
p.s. joe I can make the sharps shoot over 3 inches.

40 Rod,

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Steve