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An Alexander Henry military rifle (Read 15630 times)

waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2826 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	An Alexander Henry military rifle Jan 5^th, 2008 at 3:23pm	Print Post
	An Alexander Henry military long rifle followed me home. It is one of the batch of 2,500 that AH subcontracted to BSA in 1869. The rifles were made for the Gov't of New South Wales. The action looks like a cross between a Ruger #1 and a side hammer Peabody, with the hammer on the left side of the rifle. I'm told that was to make loading from a cartridge box worn on the right side on a belt a bit easier. The rifle has the niftiest trigger pull of any side hammer rifle I've ever messed with. But the sights are horrible military things. Caliber appears to be a .450 Boxer-Henry Long. The rifling is 7 grooves, with an inverted-V edge on each of the lands. Can anyone tell me more about this rifle? Has anyone ever tried this cartridge? Waterman


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1671 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #1 - Jan 5^th, 2008 at 3:44pm	Print Post
	Waterman, I foyu have one chambered for the boxer-henry long, you have a rare bird indeed... Most were rechambered to the standard short-chamber round (AKA 577-450). I t basically is the early, foil-case version of the 450 3 1/4" BPE, so quite close to 45-120. The issue with the straight round was that is was deemed to be too delicate, too easily damaged by rough handling. FWIW, that rifling is Henry rifling, septagonal with little ridges in the grooves. These were indeed standard NSW issue, not all that many were made by different producers (once had an NA&A). The rifle was also one of the competitors at the Brit rifle trials where the Martini Henry emerged victorious, with the Henry ending 2nd, deemed more delicate and complex than the MH. FWIW, Frank Wesson in the US made a slightly modified copy of this action, and sold it under his name. Originally, the round was loaded with a 480gr bullet and 85gr of powder in a foil case - but you will be able to use considerably more with modern brass... And as to the sights, those are typical Brit military sights, and yes, they do take some getting used to - but they will work, all part of the game.


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2826 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #2 - Jan 5^th, 2008 at 4:19pm	Print Post
	Thanks MB. The rifle is obviously more fragile than a Martini-Henry and the Brits probably made the correct choice. This is really a hunting rifle masquerading in military guise and I am surprised that the rifle made it to #2 in the trials. I bought 2 of the 1-pound ingots of Cerrosafe for a chamber cast. It looks as if one of the ingots would disappear into that long chamber and not fill it completely. I have seen modern .450-3 1/4 inch cases listed and these make reference to a thin rim. what cases should I buy? Every thing I've read says this is a standard .458 bore. I don't expect bullets to be a problem.


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1671 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #3 - Jan 5^th, 2008 at 4:48pm	Print Post
	Don't be too sure about standard .458 bore... If the barrel is to Brit military spec, something like .467 could be more in line for accurate shooting, all depends on the throat configuration, which I presume will be a bit like the MH, with a nice and generous taper As to the cases to use, I'd 1st do the chamber cast including rim , and while the block is out, measure rim depth - can't help you with that one. but I do believe it will be a rather generous chamber, with no real 'end'.


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Spud Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 494 Location: Australia Oz Joined: Feb 24^th, 2005	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #4 - Jan 5^th, 2008 at 7:27pm	Print Post
	Waterman, I used to shoot one of these Alex Henry MR in the same cartridge years ago. As Gert said most were recut/rebarrelled for the 577/450 case so the surviving long chambered ones we encounter here in Oz usually have great bores as they were seldom shot, no ammo. From my records the chamber specs on my old girl were; Rim dia - .635", Rim depth - .055", Head dia - .555", then .25" further along - .548", then .10 on - .527", Neck dia - .497", OL of chamber 3.80" (case 3.25" & about 0.5" freebore before start of rifling). Henry rifling with a groove dia of .469". Your specs will probably vary from these. I used thin rim .450 NE cases (very early Bertram production) and a variety of .45 dies to form the case for the first fireforming (also masking tape around the head to centre the case in the chamber). For projectiles I used my standard MH 577/450 480 gr .460 lead conical or the Lyman 457406 GC (minus the GC and paper patched up to a snug fit in a fired case). They are graceful looking action (virtually an English version of the Sharps !) and once the left hand hammer was mastered. a nice rifle to shoot. Great crisp trigger. Not a military rifle, more suited to target work with a decent set of match sights. I think the only problem I encountered was reworking the firing pin to get it fully functional. Enjoy. Spud


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AkMike Ex Member	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #5 - Jan 6^th, 2008 at 3:21am	Print Post
	Is your hammer on the right or left side of the action? MY AH is a righty. But from what I read here, (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) The military ones were lefties.


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2826 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #6 - Jan 13^th, 2008 at 10:31pm	Print Post
	The AH military rifle has had a chamber cast. It is definitely a .450 Boxer-Henry long and has not been rechambered to .577-450. I have some questions. #1: The cast resembles Spud's description. It is a long tapering funnel with no definite end or point that I can say "that is the end of the chamber and here is where the leade starts". I sent an e-mail to RMC and received the usual prompt reply. But RMC asked what bullet diameter I was going to use, so he would know what diameter to make the case mouth. Seems like a simple question, but given the chamber cast, I do not have a simple answer. Your help is requested. #2: Because the rifle has a 7-groove barrel, I am not sure of bore & groove diameter. I can measure the diameter at the largest spot, but that measures one groove and one land, which seems to be about 0.468" by my dial caliper. Sorta, because it is Henry rifling. Any pointers or suggestions? #3: I think I want to shoot this rifle with paper patched bullets. I've never done that. What bullet diameter should I begin with? What diameter should I make the OD of the paper patch part. #4: I am trying to figure out what the rim thickness should be. The breech end of the barrel is an absolutely flush cut. There is no recessed rim at all. There is a shallow recess milled in the face of the breech block. That milled space is quite literally the headspace. I assume (have not yet tried it) that I can determine the maximum headspace with feeler gauges. How much clearance should there be between the cartridge head and the face of the breech block to allow the breech block to slide up and down without binding. I can easily get a .45-70 case into the chamber, but the breech block will not close. The .45-70 rim is too thick. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1671 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #7 - Jan 14^th, 2008 at 6:25am	Print Post
	waterman wrote on Jan 13^th, 2008 at 10:31pm: The AH military rifle has had a chamber cast. It is definitely a .450 Boxer-Henry long and has not been rechambered to .577-450. I have some questions. #1: The cast resembles Spud's description. It is a long tapering funnel with no definite end or point that I can say "that is the end of the chamber and here is where the leade starts". Yes, this looks like the typical early chamber, with all its faults and advantages - you can vary case length without any problem whatsoever, within certain limits. I sent an e-mail to RMC and received the usual prompt reply. But RMC asked what bullet diameter I was going to use, so he would know what diameter to make the case mouth. Seems like a simple question, but given the chamber cast, I do not have a simple answer. Your help is requested. This is the hard one - I am currently experimenting with a Boxer-Henry Short (AKA 577-450), and I am getting good results both with .467 bullets (throat diameter) and with .462 bullets (groove diameter) #2: Because the rifle has a 7-groove barrel, I am not sure of bore & groove diameter. I can measure the diameter at the largest spot, but that measures one groove and one land, which seems to be about 0.468" by my dial caliper. Sorta, because it is Henry rifling. Any pointers or suggestions? Slug the bore, and roll the slug between the jaws of your caliber - the biggest measurement found will be about right - BUT this will of course be only groove dia., not throat dia. #3: I think I want to shoot this rifle with paper patched bullets. I've never done that. What bullet diameter should I begin with? What diameter should I make the OD of the paper patch part. If you don't yet have experience with PP, suggest you start with GG bullets, and then graduate to PP - quite a learning curve to PP bullets, even though they are quite addictive... #4: I am trying to figure out what the rim thickness should be. The breech end of the barrel is an absolutely flush cut. There is no recessed rim at all. There is a shallow recess milled in the face of the breech block. That milled space is quite literally the headspace. I assume (have not yet tried it) that I can determine the maximum headspace with feeler gauges. How much clearance should there be between the cartridge head and the face of the breech block to allow the breech block to slide up and down without binding. I can easily get a .45-70 case into the chamber, but the breech block will not close. The .45-70 rim is too thick. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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Spud Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 494 Location: Australia Oz Joined: Feb 24^th, 2005	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #8 - Jan 14^th, 2008 at 4:59pm	Print Post
	Waterman, Follow Gert's good advice on measuring the bore. That's the only method to use if you haven't got access to a V block setup. Certainly it would be a lot easier to use a lead bullet if you haven't worked with paper patching before. The advantage with PP is that you can vary the width of the slug to suit the cartridge mouth (after fireforming) & the barrel specs. Regarding the recess in your breechblock. I checked Wal Winfer's bible on Alex Henrys and found the following; "the majority of AH's cartridge rims were recessed into the barrel face but with some rifles this was not so. On a few rifles the cartridge rim's rebate was incorporated into the face of the breechblock in the form of a slot, of cartridge head width, with a depth corresponding to the cartridge's rim thickness, extending from the top to the bottom of the breechblock." So everything is normal with your breechblock! Use the depth of the recess to determine rim thickness I checked my records and the rim thickness on the thin rim cases I used was .040". Good luck. Spud


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #9 - Jan 15^th, 2008 at 12:31am	Print Post
	There are several ways to measure a odd sided slug. Ring guage would be best. Sine blocks can be used also if you have the equipment. I have been told just recenly an optical comparator could be used also, just never seen the set up to do it. And of course the old Millwright technique described above of rolling it between the slack jaws of a calipar. If it will help here is a drawing of the 577/450 Henry barrel used in the Martini Henry. I left this drawing long and large so you can read the measurements. Below the drawing I will also post the verbal description of the bore. There are no lands or grooves in a Henry barrel. There are peaks and flats. The top of the peak has the same radius as the center of the flat and is the minor diameter. The end of the flat has a larger diameter than the center...just like an octagon barrel. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Quote: As issued, Henry's barrel had a nominal bore of 0.450-inch, obtained by allowing an 0.449-inch plug to run, whilst rejecting one of 0.451-inch. This bore was slightly enlarged at the breech end, so that an 0.451-inch plug would run in four inches from the breech, and one of 0.450-inch, eight inches. From this point to the muzzle the bore was cylind¬rical. The grooves in the tapering section were 0.009-inch deep to within one inch of the true bore, and from there to the muzzle 0.007-inch deep, giving a relieved bore of eight inches, with progressive grooves for seven inches. There were seven grooves of a right hand uniform twist, with one turn in 22 inches. The chamber was cut in the barrel, and was coned 0.018-inch to ease extraction.

	Douglas, Ret.
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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2826 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #10 - Jan 15^th, 2008 at 5:42pm	Print Post
	Many thanks to all. I can see I have an educational project on hand. I will post an occasional account of my adventures. Paul F, this one may show up at a match in a couple of fortnights.


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Paul_F. Ex Member	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #11 - Jan 15^th, 2008 at 7:44pm	Print Post
	Waterman; Looking forward to it! I'll bring my digital camera... Paul F.


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Spud Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 494 Location: Australia Oz Joined: Feb 24^th, 2005	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #12 - Jan 17^th, 2008 at 3:58am	Print Post
	DoubleD, What is the source of that great illustration of the 577/450 Henry barrel you posted? I've not seen that one before. Very nice. Spud


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2826 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #13 - Jan 17^th, 2008 at 12:50pm	Print Post
	Second that request, Double D. It is great. Also, Spud makes reference to Wal Winfer's bible on Alexander Henry rifles. That is a new reference to me. Please post the complete citation. My high school English teacher said "Every time you buy a gun, buy a book about it". Given the price of the rifle, I will probably spring for a copy of the book. And thanks again to all of you for sharing your wisdom and experience.


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Spud Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 494 Location: Australia Oz Joined: Feb 24^th, 2005	Re: An Alexander Henry military rifle Reply #14 - Jan 17^th, 2008 at 4:41pm	Print Post
	Waterman, Wal Winfer has written a great series of books titled "British Single Shot Rifles Vols 1-5" covering the rifles developed by all the big names. Vol 1 - Alexander Henry, Vol 2 - Gibbs, Vol 3 - Jeffery, Vol 4 - Westley Richards, Vol 5 - Holland & Holland (and hopefully Vol 6 - Webley, soon). They are high quality publications by Tom Rowe (Rowe Publications, NY) full of info, good photos and line drawings of the actions and their parts. Each vol usually has a section on the cartridges eached used and reloading. Full of detail. Wal has been writing articles on reloading for single shot rifles for shooting journals here in Australia for donkeys years. Components for the old guns have always been difficult to source here so Wal became a master of innovation. He is also an engineer so he was also interested in how the actions were developed and their workings. He's old school. If you can't afford a Farquharson ( & the closest I'll ever get is a Ruger No1 in .404 Jeffery) then these books are a must. Enjoy that Alexander Henry. I look forward to some results from the range. Spud


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