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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spotting scope testing (Read 51308 times)
Tar_Baby
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #75 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 10:57am
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what are the conclusions?
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #76 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 4:32pm
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Quote:
what are the conclusions?

I think it's way too early for me to conclude anything. I find it interesting that the Konus, Kowa and Bushnell were so close.
I've had the Bushnell Sentry for many years, shot offhand at 200 yards in the winter league for many years, looked through any available scope during those years, and never found a BIG difference. The Bushnell allowed me to see most 30 caliber holes in the black at 200 years in often cloudy to dark conditions.
I don't know how to translate the resolution target into bullet-hole-seeing ability.
I'm starting to think that side-by-side testing is a problem, it's hard to get set up and focused and comfortable with a spotting scope.
The mount or tripod is a big problem, specially in the wind. I'm working on a better design for mounting on a bench. I think the "point" mount of a screw is part of the problem.
Still getting tests from others.
joe b.
  
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Tar_Baby
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #77 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 6:07pm
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some days i see better than others. regards,ben
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #78 - Jan 8th, 2008 at 2:33pm
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Some time back there was a discussion of spotting scopes on C. Hamilton's CB-L, and Tom Slater impressed me and us with his iknowledge of telescopes and optics. I corresponded with Tom and asked him to write an article on spotting scopes for the book. He agreed, but unfortunately passed away recently. 
One can find and read the whole discussion on the CB-L in the archives. I've gone there and have selected and copied and edited a bit, and here is what I ended up with. Everything below, declarative, by Tom Slater.   
     



I can easily spot .22 cal holes at 200 yards with any of my Unertl 24X scopes. A guess....20X would work for spotting .22 holes. Naked eye conditions.... 20 X .22" = 4.4" and I think a 4.4" hole would be naked eye visible at 200 yards.
C-90 Celestron.... perhaps the finest 90mm spotting scope on the market today. It is the Maksutov Cassegrain design and compares favorably to the $7000 Questar.
Hello List: (the subject of spotting scopes comes up often)
I have posted many replies on spotting scopes, and scopes in general, because I deal with so many of them and repair my own scopes. No, I don't grind lenses but, over the years, have learned to replace/repair crosshairs, reticules, elevation/windage tubes and those itsy-bitsy threaded components in the elevation/windage controls. Hey folks, it ain't rocket science. Those scopes were built by mortals, just like you and I, and any one of you can repair a scope. All it takes is attention to detail and a few dollars worth of small tools, most of which tools you can make yourself.
What do those numbers mean on optical things? On a conventional spotting scope the likes of Zeiss, Nikon, Burris, Pentax, Kowa etc....
These scopes are often, (usually), listed with a number that is supposed to be meaningful, like a 65, or an 80 or 90 or some such. This number is the diameter, in millimeters, of the objective lens element at the front of the telescope. Rather than call the lens elements something
like "front lens diameter" & "eyepiece lens diameter" manufacturers like to try to impress you with the words "objective" and "ocular." Oh well, it makes them feel important. The first number is often followed by another set of numbers which is somewhat intuitive, like 16-36X, or 20-48X, which represent the magnification range. Almost all modern spotting scopes are equipped with zoom eyepieces which is indicated by the range of numbers in this number series. Fairly straightforward.
But what is the significance of the first number? That silly 65, or 80 or 90, and sometimes even 100? --->The bigger the number the more light the optical system can gather is the significance!<--- A 65mm front opening is fine for daylight target and game spotting but will fall on it's face when the light is fading. The person with a 90mm scope will be able to effectively spot game long after you are headed to camp. And the person with a 100mm spotting scope will be able to use that scope effectively for astronomical observing, but a 100mm scope is getting big, sorta seriously big. (I have a 100mm Celestron spotting scope and it requires 28" of storage space and a stout tripod for use.) If you will be using your spotting scope under fading light to spot game avoid the smallest 'objective' openings like 50mm, 60mm and 65mm and go for the 75mm or 80mm.
And what in hades is that thing called "focal length"? That is the overall length from the front lens element of a telescope to the point that the image is formed at the eyepiece. This number is not generally listed for conventional spotting scopes. But this number will be listed for any scope that utilizes interchangeable eyepieces and is a vital number. When you are armed with the telescope focal length, and the focal length of any eyepiece, you can calculate system magnification. Let's say you have a 400mm focal length telescope and place a 40mm eyepiece in the holder. The overall system magnification would be 10X because system magnification is determined by dividing the focal length of the telescope by the focal length of the eyepiece. In this case it is 400/40 = 10X. In another case, starting with the same telescope, we might have 400mm telescope focal length divided by a 32mm eyepiece focal length. 400/32 = 12.5X. A 28mm eyepiece would supply 400/28 = 14X Figuring out focal lengths and magnifications can be confusing so if you have a problem please email me and we will solve that riddle somehow.
Names and preferences: Any of you that have followed my posts on spotting scopes are aware that I prefer catadioptric telescopes. Huh? Whatthehadesisthatword? Catadioptric = "folded light path" and is found in two common telescope designs, the Schmidt Cassegrain and the Maksutov Cassegrain telescopes, the SCT and the MCT. These two telescopes utilize a primary mirror to gather light and this mirror is at the back of the telescope. The light from the
primary mirror is reflected back to the front of the telescope where it strikes the secondary mirror.
The light from the secondary mirror is again sent toward the back of the telescope where it goes through the center of the primary mirror and is reflected by a flat mirror into an eyepiece. Complicated, huh?
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #79 - Jan 8th, 2008 at 2:37pm
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Look at this....
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links);
for a reasonable explanation of the folded light path used in the SCT and the MCT. The SCT is designed to be user/owner collimatible, (aligned optically), and this is a daunting task if you are not familiar with how it is done. The MCT, although it can be collimated, is not designed for the owner to do this and will generally remain aligned for several lifetimes. Overall the MCT supplies the most bang for the buck in telescopes.
With the SCT and the MCT you must purchase eyepieces but this is a minor
expense.
Comments on binoculars: Quality binoculars are hard to beat under most circumstances, but are not truly a replacement for a high powered spotting scope. Binoculars supply visual
information in the format your brain is accustomed to receiving it, from two eyes. And please note that I said **quality** binoculars. Trying to utilize a $29 set of binoculars is folly because I have handled almost every set of binoculars on the market and what you need is not generally available at that price. Any of you that have paid for that 'lifetime dream' hunting trip and then tried to use $29 binoculars all day will know of the intense headache cheap binoculars will cause.
Optical alignment, (collimation), of the two binocular tubes and all optical elements within the tubes cannot be understated. My preference in binoculars is the Pentax PCF series, starting at ~$195. Look for binoculars with individually adjustable eyepiece diopter, (that small + or - visual correction you see in eyeglasses), for the ultimate in viewing comfort.
High quality binoculars are a lifetime investment and can be some of the best money you will ever spend. The Pentax line has all the features I outlined and is guaranteed for life, even if you weigh 220 lbs and sit upon them. (Please don't ask how I know about the validity of the Pentax guarantee, it embarrasses me.) 10X binoculars can be hand held but any higher magnification is difficult, (damned near impossible to hand hold), but for very young, steady, muscles.
Check 'eye relief' with any viewing aid you are interested in. Eye relief is critical and is the distance from your eye to the eyepiece. If you have only a diopter, (magnification or the lack
thereof), correction, that visual problem can be corrected with system focus and you can remove your glasses for viewing. But if you have even moderate astigmatism you will be forced to wear corrective lenses nearly all the time, and this is where 'eye relief' becomes critical. If you wear corrective lenses check the distance from the front of your glasses to the surface of your eyeball. You will find that this distance is probably 15mm to 17mm and is the 'eye relief' so ~15mm minimum, is critical. If you do not have sufficient 'eye relief' you will find that you are limiting the field of view, (looking through a garden hose), as you move your eye away from the eyepiece.



You have a knockout scope in the Celestron(80). Every person that has ever looked through any of my Celestron scopes wants to know about getting one I have turned dozens of people on to the fairly priced Celestron scopes over the years.
I use several Celestron telescopes including an ED 100mm as shown (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) I also have a C90 that is perhaps 10 years old and is shown in the same section. The drawback with the Maksutov type telescope is the requirement to purchase eyepieces but two of those will do almost everything you could need and are available for ~$20 each.
And a conventional spotting scope from Celestron is available and shown in the same area. I have absolutely nothing against Nikon, Zeiss, Swarovski, Pentax or Kowa except the outrageous price for these scopes. If nothing but spending $600 to $2500 will make you happy then, by all means, get one of those listed in the previous sentence. But I challenge any one to show me the difference in a $2000 Zeiss and a $200 Celestron.
The largest optical manufacturing facilities in the world are part of SYNTA in China and it won't be long until all optics are made there.

 
Should I get the 80 series, or would the 65 series do as well for what I need? Anything else I need to take into account?

Hi:
The 65mm, (obj diameter), should do everything you need. Where the 80mm obj comes into play is for some very beginning astronomical observing. The 80mm Celestron is nearly $50 more than the 65mm and offers only 5X more magnification. I have found that higher magnifications are nearly useless in bright daylight due to thermal instability.
The Celestrons are the optical equivalent of a Zeiss, Nikon, Kowa etc and the price is a whole lot more agreeable.
I have the 100mm Celestron and feel it offers little more than the 65mm.

I finally checked my replies to you and find that I did not mention the conventional spotter that I use. I have the Celestron 100mm Ultima for a conventional type spotter. It is the closest thing I have ever found to my 100mm Unertl Team Spotter, and appears to be a nearly direct optical copy.
A point regarding zoom optics. There are some zoom setups/lenses that indicate greater than 3:1 range. It is my opinion, (yeah, I know, everybody has one), that exceeding this range produces some undesirable effects. Stay with the 3:1 zoom range when selecting a telescope of any type.

  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #80 - Jan 8th, 2008 at 2:39pm
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Tom,
I need a spotting scope. What would you recommend?

Any magnification above ~60X can be difficult to use because of thermal instabilities in the air. Everything is fine until ~9:00 a.m. and then your next look seems like the view through lobster stew. At high noon in New Mexico, (or around Houston, TX), it is nearly impossible to use 16X because of this air instability problem.
I have no interest in 'Hands on Optics' but use this merchant for all my optical needs. It is run by a competent bunch of people that truly stand behind the products they sell. Gary Hand, and his wife Sherry, are good people.
My preference in a "conventional" spotting scope is a Celestron shown here...
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
A series of scopes from Meade is also part of the stock at 'Hands' and shown
here.... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
And these are Maksutov Cassegrain Telescope, (MCT), type and will require additional eyepieces for different magnifications. I own and use a Meade ETX125 Astronomical Telescope on a fork drive and have found it to give good performance. It does not match the contrast and sharpness of a LOMO, but nothing else will.
Now we will take a look at Pentax spotters but sheeesh are they expensive!
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) And note the Pentax eyepieces shown in this section. Pentax eyepieces are what I use for astronomical observing. Pentax eyepieces are
considered the finest in the world.
You want a Zeiss? Arguably nothing
finer..... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
And last but not least the lowly LOMO that I enjoy and use. Ultimately, my all-around
spotters and astronomical telescopes. I do not have any LOMO on any type of astronomical 'drive' so I must touch up the position of any of these telescopes to track objects in the heavens. Again, I absolutely >>defy<< anyone to show my finer optics in any MCT type telescope. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) The handiest size of the bunch is the "Astele 70" which is ~6" long and 3" dia. And honesty is best here because it will be necessary to purchase different eyepieces for different magnifications. But do not discard the little "Astele 60" because it is not as pretty as some of the larger scopes. I do not own a 60 but have used one at the 'Hands on' shop and found it gives superb views.
Now let's talk about eyepieces. The simple 'Plossl' eyepiece will do everything that you could ever want and is commonly available for ~$25 and sometimes a little bit less. As long as you stay at 12mm and longer, (bigger number), they eye relief is, (how close your eye must be to the eyepiece), is very adequate. At 9mm eyepiece focal length with a 'Plossl' your eyelashes will begin to touch the eyepiece and most people find this annoying.
Go here for a look at the used market. I purchase many items from this site. It is a great service to hobby optical users. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Or simply visit (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) for a complete list of many items offered by 'Anacortes Telescope and Wild Bird' under their 'astromart' banner. Select the 'Classifieds' tab and it will take you to a list of bunches of categories.
Why don't I recommend a Kowa? I have absolutely nothing against that fine spotter but feel they are overpriced, just like a Pentax or a Zeiss. If you have your heart set on a
conventional spotting scope you won't go wrong with Kowa, Pentax, Zeiss and the like,
but I would recommend a 'Celestron' as my preference in a conventional style. I am not putting down the Kowa, Pentax, etc.....I simply feel that there are complete equals, and a few superior
products, on the market for less money. I can quickly convert other shooters to 'Celestron' or
'LOMO' products by giving them a look through what I use. When other shooters look through my tiny LOMO 70mm MCT the next question is always "where can I get one of these?"
You asked about the mirrors. I have never seen a problem with the mirrors in any of the products I use, but optical mirrors must be treated with care. An optical mirror is a 'first surface' mirror and unless you pay for 'dielectric' coating, (verrry expensive), the mirrored surface is unprotected. Any attempt to clean an unprotected 'first surface' mirror will result in disaster. Use only >>>clean, dry<<< compressed air to remove dust from 'first surface' mirrors.
And don't turn down a trip to Cabela's to check their stock. I have visited the Cabela's
stores in Dundee, Michigan and Wheeling, West Virginia and have seen some great bargains in spotters at their optical counters. A $120 Browning spotter is good stuff. Oh yeah, Burris has some good equipment also. Check Cabela's.



Russian optics
The very smallest LOMO scopes have a non-removable eyepiece built in.
A fair price comparison must include one additional eyepiece for ~$25. I have an assortment of over 50 different eyepieces, (worse than collecting guns), and use only 3 of them on a regular basis. And the same 3 eyepieces are used in all 5 telescopes, including the 14"
Celestron.
Is the LOMO line tough enough for outdoor mountain work? I have watched Jim Cheng drop his 95mm LOMO on the floor at "Hands on Optics" on three different occasions. LOMO scopes are built like tanks! A Questar MCT telescope is built with 1/16" aluminum tube, the 95mm LOMO is built with 1/4" aluminum tube.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #81 - Jan 8th, 2008 at 2:43pm
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Multi-coated optics? The Russians still use the very finest mercury and rare earth based
multi-coating materials that have been discontinued for environmental reasons in the rest of the world. I guess the Russians don't care if their citizens are born with two heads.
The spotting scopes that I mentioned and that I use, (just the smaller range of astronomical telescopes), are made by LOMO. This telescope line is often compared to the very highly regarded Questar that is fabricated entirely in the US of A.
Take a look (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) and scroll down the page to "The Astele 95" and read the comment regarding comparison to the Questar. High end Russian, (really the former USSR), optics must be seen to be believed. The view of the "Pleiades", (Messier 45), (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) through my simple LOMO Maksutov Cassegrain Telescope, (MCT), is something that I never tire of. The brilliant blue stars, and surrounding blue shaded dust have a very high 'wow' factor.
LOMO is a mnemonic for Leningrad Optical and Machine Company. A walk around
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) will display the range of products available from this respected company.
The import of LOMO telescopes is in some stage of cutback at this time so if you want one it would be best to check on the availability. Even the Russians cannot compete with the cheapest from China. My beloved American made 'Celestron' Schmidt Cassegrain Telescope, (SCT), has been redesigned and is now manufactured by SYNTA in China.
You have the choice of a $900 Kowa, (a very fine spotting telescope), or a $120 LOMO. And I absolutely >>defy<< and challenge anyone to be able to tell the difference. The finest optical test benches in the world will put the LOMO ahead of the best from Zeiss, Kowa, Nippon Kogaku
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #82 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 7:47am
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The 1951 USAF resolution target
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #83 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 7:51am
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Spotting scopes at 100 yards "see" the -2, -1 and infrequently, the 0 displays. Each display or set of views has six different sized view. Here's the -2
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #84 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 7:52am
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The smaller -1
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #85 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 7:55am
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And the smallest seen to date "0".
  
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Tar_Baby
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #86 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 8:04am
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Joe i drive down to the target-take a look pat my own back and go home to the shootin house.

  
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