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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spotting scope testing (Read 51276 times)
joeb33050
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Spotting scope testing
Nov 2nd, 2007 at 9:49am
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There's a suggestion on the BPCR forum about testing spotting scopes to make comparisons.
I wrote this and sent it to Jesse Miller for his input. 
We're looking for an objective, repeatable way for a lot of people in a lot of places with a lot of different spotting scopes to "measure" them. Wouldn't it be nice if we found a $100 scope that did the job? 
Keep in mind that I know close to nothing about optics.
I  typed a sentence in WORD, Times New Roman, and copied it four times, so there's a column of sentences. Top is 12 point, then I changed them to 11, 10, 9 and 8 point. 8 point is small. I printed it. 
I propose that we set up a paper at 100 yards with a certain sentence in sizes from maybe 16? down to 8 point.
The rule is, look through the spotting scope and decide which sentence you can read easily-no guessing.
Record the size, ex:10 point, and record the conditions of the light, maybe 
bright sunny
bright cloudy
cloudy
overcast
or 
bright
cloudy
overcast
and then start collecting these for various spotting scopes. If everybody uses white paper, the same sentences in the same font in the same sizes, then maybe we'll have some objective data to look at.
Maybe a not on mirage too.
This is a start at least.
??
joe brennan
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #1 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 10:59am
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IMO the comparison should be shoulder-to-shoulder, scope against scope side-by-side, to ensure the same viewing conditions. This would mean that each comparison would rank at least two scopes against each other, with a fairly clear indication of the better one.

After enough of these side-by-side rankings have been accumulated, it should be possible to get a good idea of the best choice.

Most of us can come up with two or three scopes at a time even if we hafta borrow some from others, and a shoulder-to-shoulder comparison is much better IMO than an individual scope ranking by a lot of different individuals under a lot of different viewing conditions.

The basic idea is a splendid one and I'd very much like to see it happen.
Good luck, Joe
  
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Shooter_1
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #2 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 12:04pm
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Hi Guys, 
Wouldn't the scope power have a lot to do with what you see and how good you see it ?.
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #3 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 12:28pm
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Along the lines of JD's reasoning, perhaps the best way to do this is at various local and National Matches.  Have a "test bench" set up with a coupe of very steady scope stands and the standard "target" at 100 and perhaps 200 yards.  Each willing participant would bring his scope to the fray, mount it up, and have at least 2 or 3 folks compare them literally shoulder to shoulder.  This would eliminate a lot of the variables of conditions, shooter's eye differences, etc. etc.  Another plus for this strategy is that people bring a lot of scopes to matches anyway, varying from the cheap starter scopes to the best they can find.  One downside of all scope testing is the inconsistent quality of some brands of scopes.  An atypical sample might really skew the results higher or lower for that particular brand.  Sad

I'll be happy to incorporate it into the next Chinquapin match program at Brushy Mtn, but it's not until June.  Undecided  Meanwhile, if several interested folk want to coordinate such a project, we can plan it via PM, etc.  Cool

BTW Shooter_1, how BIG it gets is magnification (power) how CLEARLY it shows the image is called resolution, and that's really more of what this test is about.  For instance, my old B&L zoom eyepiece needs to be cranked back to about 75-80% of its strongest magnification to get optimum resolution under most circumstances.

Froggie
  
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Shooter_1
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #4 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 1:48pm
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Hi Froggie,
I agree, I know that magnification is power and that resolution is how clearly a person sees the image, but I think that with a low power ( magnification ) scope such as a 20 X,  even if it has high resolution you may still have a problem seeing small bullet holes at 200 yds. or even at 100 yds if shooting 22's. I always used Unertl spotting scopes and considered 24 X 63 to be minimum for rifle,  and 20 X 54 for 50 yd. pistol shooting, sure you can use a lower than 24 X for rifle shooting and maybe still see holes in the white but you may "lose" them in the black, especially at 200 yds. I think it takes both power and high resolution and if you have good quality glass it seems that the bigger the objective the better, up to a point.  I also still have a 24 X 100 Unertl Team scope, I don't use it much because it's to much for me to "carry" but I can see a difference between it and my other Unertl 24 X, both the same power but the Team scope has the 100 MM objective, believe me, there is a difference between the two.
Shooter
  
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boats
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #5 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 2:20pm
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I have found with the inexpensive or less expensive optics some identical models are better than others.   

So you could have a 100 dollars 20x scope that's great and another exactly the same that is not so great.

Have found the same thing to a lesser degree with high dollar stuff too. What seems to separate the good ones from not so good is customer service and warranty work.

How are you going to test that ?

Boats
  
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Shooter_1
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #6 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 10:15pm
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Boats,
The warranty is one thing I don't have to worry about, I bought my 24 X 63 around 1965 and the Team scope in the mid 1970's. I'm sure the warranty is long gone. In fact the original factory is long gone.
  Shooter
  
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #7 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 8:52am
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Shooter 

I was at the Smallbore Silhouette nationals some years ago, Leopould had a factory rep displaying the new variable spotting scope. He had it off the line focused on the 100 Meter swinger.  Guy came up and said he was thinking about a new scope but wanted to see if it was better than his.

He set up a Unertil, old and sort of beat up from long years of use.  It was significantly better than the new Leopold, guys would look through one and then the other.  Factory rep was not happy about it.

When I say guarantee I mean the new imported scopes.  Asian manufacturers way is sell 100 and deliver 110 to cover the rejects.  They are not reparable generally and in the lower price ranges don't have much for quality control. That's the way the world is going.

I would like to have a team scope under my Xmas tree this year.  Used to use them when shooing on a pick up CG reserve team. we borrowed them and everything else from the Navy.

Boats
  
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13Echo
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #8 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 9:43am
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Birders probably pay more attention to quality optics than any other group.  Try googeling  "Better View Desired" and check out the spotting scope tests on the site.  A lot of good info there.

Jerry Liles
  
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FEB
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #9 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 5:23pm
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Jerry Liles -

Good advice.  My wife took up birding before I took up shooting single shots.  My first spotting scope was her birding scope (a Cabella 60 mm).  When I decided I needed something more, I went to the birding site you suggested and ended up with an 82 mm Nikon 20x-60x.  They recommended it highly and I am very happy with it.  Zeiss, Swarovski and Unertl team scopes may be a hair better, but for the money, I think the birders gave me a very good recommendation.

FEB
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #10 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 5:41am
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I don't disagree with anything said here so far, and hope that we can get some testing done before and at next year's matches. 
However, the can-you-read-the-print test, or something similar, allows testing of one scope with at least some information, common, gathered.
Here's the first:
Yesterday, 3 November, 2007, at the Trail Glades Range in Miami, I put a piece of white paper to the 100 yard target. On this paper, in Times New Roman, were sentences in 16, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8 point type. 16 looked pretty big to me, in person.
It was a bright, sunny, windy day. No to few clouds.
Nobody who looked could read even the largest sentence using the following:
Lyman 30X STS
Simmons 20-60 X 60
Leica Televid 62, 15-60
NC Star 20-60 X 60
joe b.
  
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #11 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 7:04am
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Joe

Respectfully,  If the test is not side by side it's not going to be valid.  Light conditions are so varied. Different printers paper and ink will skew it too.

Standard test could be a new dollar bill posted at standard range with scopes side by side.  You could run a number of shooters down the line of scopes and record there ability to read the serial number.

Boats

  
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Shooter_1
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #12 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 10:07am
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Hi  Guys, 
Just a suggestion,
Reading sentences in different point type and serial numbers off a dollar bill may be fun for some, but don't you think the proper size bullet holes in the paper such as, 22, 25, 30, 32, and up to 45 etc.,  would be a better test of a scope,  put them on the proper color target paper, a series of them in the "white" and a series of them in the "black", after all,  what we are interested in seeing is bullet holes. I think most may be surprised at what you can an cannot see. 
Shooter
  
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bnice
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #13 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 11:20am
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One problem I see with all this is the mount that the scopes are used on. If you fail to remove the vibration from the mount it doesn't matter how good the scope is.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Spotting scope testing
Reply #14 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 11:40am
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My object is to design a test that is usable by anyone in the world, with any spotting scope. 
I'm doing it, hope you'll help.
I'm aware of the 1951 AF resolution standard/s.
If you'll look at my chapter on this, you'll see that I believe that side-by-side comparisons would be better. Many things would be better.
However, an objective, common, easy test is the first step on this project-I'm going to bigger type next.
Looking for ideas, feasible, possible, relatively easy test method.   
There are roughly 1.46 zillion spotting scopes available. Under the best of cases we'd need months and lots of folks to do a side by side test, and then years to rank order the results.
Do the birders have any numbers, or is it just A better than B?
Anyone?
joe b.
  
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