Dave is a fine offhand shooter and usually places well in our centerfire matches also - I personally have not researched it but I have been told - whatever that means - that the 22 rf was "never" (now that is a very all encompassing word) shot at 200yds offhand back in the "golden era" but it has been at EG since the start of the Spring and Fall 22 Matches.
I myself am somewhat sceptical about the "never" but cannot disprove it either.  I know that this is not much of an answer but thought that I would add fuel to the fire - u all have a good day now - the rimfire - cdpersons

sorry to be such a dummy here, but just how big are those 200 yd. centers ??

What Rifle/Ammo did he use.

Boats

Froggie - thanks for the update - Jim Borton has told me that the long rifle cartridge was developed to be shot at 200yds as the short and longs did not perform well enough at that distance.  Glad to know that it was shot in matches at that distance during the "golden age" that is if you can trust a frog and a green one at that - ha - thanks again - the rimfire - cdpersons

Bill. 

On the number of rounds in one day.  Rimfire Silhouette shooters will often shoot 4 60 shot matches in one day.  240 rounds.  You have 30 seconds per shot in NRA rules Silhouette.  That's 120 minutes for the 240 rounds.  In most Schuetzen matches we have a 45 minute relay with 15 minutes to post targets.  With a rim fire it's not much trouble to shoot 40 shots in a Schuetzen relay with 30 as about the norm. Two 10 shot targets in a single relay would be pretty slow shooting.

That means to shoot two Hudson's one at 100 and one at 200 you need 8 or 10 relays to complete the matches.  Sighters take some time too.
You need backstop room to post 4 targets plus a sighter and shoot with a predictable cadence and routine. 

There are two schools of thought on shooting quickly vs taking time between shots.  As long as carelessness or errors don't creep into the string or conditions don't hold things up faster is generally considered to be better. Fatigue is a factor and to shoot a large number of shots in one day the rifles weight is going to be an issue for most people.  It is a very good test of a shooters skill and concentration.

Boats

Considering the need for new shooters and to perhaps "juice up" existing events would there be any objection to shooting the .22 rimfire
is ASSRA events at 200 yards? Is it time to change the rules?  I recall a couple of years ago Matt Carter shooting a 1024 at the ISSA International shoot under some
difficult wind conditions.

fred

In the ASSRA rimfire shoots, we have the option of 100 or 200 yds to shoot ANY of the typical CF matches. That was one of the reasons to separate the RF from CF matches was so we could shoot all of the matches given the space constraints of EG. Not suprisingly, we get several RF only shooters but a majority shoot both during thier respective events. 

As little as 5 years ago, ASSRA had no rimfire only match dates. Now we have two two day events so we are making changes to adapt to shooter requests. Maybe not as fast as some like, but we are making changes. 

Lets see, now we need a Martini only event. Just kidding Jim  !

Brent it depends on your routine.  

With a CF at 200 I shoot, glance through the spotting scope without coming out of position, and use the information from the bullets strike to make my next shot.  I am not playing the wind hardly at all. In fact I am trying to shoot all shots in the same wind as when sighting in. The scope is confirming my strike as it relates to hold and position.  Self coaching. Routine at 100 rimfire is exactly the same.

I can see 22 holes at 200 under most conditions but have to look carefully and study the target some. Combination of my eyes and scope set up.  My offhand BiPod is none to steady and handicaps the scope.  Spotting that carefully when it's not quick and easy would throw my routine off and scores would suffer.

If I was going to shoot rimfires at 200 offhand I would sight the rifle under the most likely condition on a plain white target.  Once I had the groups centered up would fire all shots quickly while that condition existed without looking at a scope at all.

Of course you have to shoot under the rules and ASSRA orange is what could be required.  If so and again under ASSRA rules  I would also wait until I was down range to count strikes on the paper, only keeping track of shots during the string with a loading block, not observing the target.  Any total misses can be re-fired under ASSRA so a notebook down range noting targets that need additional shots is the way to go.

Telling you all this theoreticly since I don't shoot rimfire matches at 200 and am not likely to. But if I had to that's what I would do.  

Could be an interesting match and if offered locally would probably give it a try. I still don't see any good reason to shoot CF and RF in the same one however. Would be just as interesting all rimfires on the line.

Boats

Gents,

A memorable event indeed...  Maybe there is some hope after all, if one of the 'don't like Martini' crowd is actually advocating the use of same - I quote: "a Browning low wall or a Martini 12/15 and a low-midpower scope".  Hmmm - maybe my presence on this forum is paying off after all.  Either that, or Brent has just caught a virus    The Martini virus probably!
Brent, sorry to make a bit of fun out of you, just couldn't help it....  I promise, you can try and have a go at converting me to some hogleg rifles!
FWIW, the addition of either a Swiss buttplate or some lead in the stockbolt hole with make the 12/15 (or the 15, for that matter...) into a capable offhand rifle.
FWIW, at the Bisley Imperial meet, there is a 200yd offhand comp with a rimfire category - excellent for your windreading skills.

Brent,

I just might make it out there across the pond one day...  Probably to shoot some LR BPCR matches, and - who knows - maybe with PP bullets.  After all, the 1st time I used mine in competition (midrange match in Bisley), I ended 3rd... - this was after a total of about 100 rounds of PP through the barrel, hardly any load development.  There just might be something to those diapers indeed, and I might even get the hang of a rifle with a centre-hung hammer.  But those sidehammer things, no thank you...

Guys remember everyone is entitled to there opinion!
Right or wrong!   So don`t get mad a each other just because you all don`t agree with each other!
Remember that what makes the World go round!

A couple of questions:

1.  The fellow who shot those marvelous scores at 200 yds w/ 1.5' centers, did he do that w/ a scope?   

2.  One man in another thread asked about .22s and was roundly put down and I ask why?  Isn't the .22 a handicap?  All forms of shotgun shooting put a gauge or shot charge restriction above which you may not go.  However an Italian trapshooter once won a world cup in a 12 gauge event with a fine 197x200 at international trapshooting with a 20 ga. Perazzi.  So, I ask why not?  We need to preclude those who would take unfair advantage not those who seek additional handicaps.  Just a thought.

From my experince shooting at EG, there is nothing preventing you from shooting a .22RF during a CF match, you just are not eligible for awards for CF matches. Right now, there is a 200yd anysight .22 bench non-reentry match, the 100yd mini Hudson re entry match, a 50yd re-entry match and the 50yd Stitch re-entry match. So we do shoot .22LR during the CF matches. They just don't compete in the same match. All other matches are CF. But if you want to shoot a .22LR in one of the other matches, have at it. Just remember it is not a valid target to turn in for awards 

The only problem that could come up but I have never seen it happen is if we ran out of spots for the CF shooters and you were only shooting a rimfire and you had shot the 200yd match, you could be asked to give up your spot. That would only be after everyone was asked if someone was done shooting and wouldn't mind giving up their bench for someone who had not shot. If you were a new shooter, I'm sure you would never be asked to give up a bench.

Yes, Sanctioned. I guess that is different than sponsor.

The Worldcreedmoor is covered by the insurance that covers the ASSRA and any shoot the ASSRA sanctions.

I guess it saves bunch of cash not having to get a yearly policy.

Guess the only mis spoken word was sponsored and sanctioned.
And the ASSRA has done this for many years.

A formal request has been made to the proper ASSRA officals to bring up the question of .22 rimfires competing in centerfire matches. Proposal would give ASSRA local clubs the option of allowing rimfires.
Most local clubs have limited shooting dates and by allowing rimfires hopefully new shooters would be attracted. 

fred

MartiniBelgian wrote on Oct 31^st, 2007 at 9:31am:


Gert, 
According to rimfirecentral.com the bc of most target ammo bullets is around 0.15.

 

 

Brent

In 1983 I got the local Anheuser-Busch distributor, my employer, to sponsor five of us Massachusetts lads to Coors. The next year I got him to put up $500 for prize money for a Schuetzen shooting match, 100 shots, 10 per German ring target. Prizes $300, $150, $50 as I recall. My goal was to drum up interest.
An older Camp Perry Smallbore-shooting, widely experienced competitor asked if 22rf was allowed, causing me to consult with a lot of folks, including Mike Stevens who was the ASSRA Schuetzenmeister at the time. I called Mike three times, before-during-after the match. 
I told the old fellow that we couldn't allow 22rf to compete in the match. He graciously accepted this Soloman-like decision, shot the match anyhow, had a good time, did very well but would not have won.
The reason that I/we didn't allow him to compete with CF shooters boiled down to this:
In dead still conditions a rf shooter will beat an equally competent cf shooter at 200 yards on the German target in a 100 shot match. The ease of shooting/no breech seating/no recoil make the rf guy victorious when there's no wind.
Now this isn't a fact, it is the distilled opinion of the maybe 6-8 people, including Mike, that I talked to. I had no opinion, never shot offhand well, wasn't a contender.
The match winner was/is a 22rf expert who has been to and fired at Camp Perry.
During the war the 22rf was used at ranges to 300 yards; there is a Rifleman article about that.
22rf shooting can be deadly accurate, several times we saw a guy at Fairfax, Buddy Sombart?, shooting 200 yard groups that were amazing.
Old American Rifleman magazines with the Peters? almost-full-page ads with the guys at local indoor smallbore matches show what it was like when I was a kid-men used to go to matches and shoot, lots of men. I think we commited suicide with the Walthers, ray guns, and 25 cent a shot ammunition. We equipmented ourselves out of existence.
I think that 22rf matches should be handicapped by ammo cost-EX: $20 a brick is the standard, 4 cents a shot. 20 cent a shot ammo and you lose 10%? of your score.

Also, I'd like to tell you that if you think that you're nasty and vituperative in this thread, you're amateurs. Get $500 for prize money and run a match, then you'll see what nasty and vituperative are all about. It cured me, I'll help but I'll never run another match.
joe b.