Has anyone tried Eley Match EPS with the funny looking bullet?  What  results did you get at 100 and 200 yards?   

David
Montezuma, IA

Hi Dave,

Back in 2004 at the ISSA match in Raton, I was shooting next to Greg Molendyk during rimfire bench match, both of us were using Eley EPS Black, I shot a 1233.34 and Greg shot a 1243.43, Eley EPS is very good ammo provided your gun likes it!

Bob

"and my degree of testing is somewhat more rigorous than most folks"

You sure are one smart fella Jessie, and what amazes me is that you also know what degree of testing is done by "most folks" and that your testing is more rigorous than what they do.  I am certain that you can tell us how you know what level of testing is done by "most folks" and why your methods are more rigorous, yes?  

Dave

I shoot a 22 inch Bullberry barrel with a match chamber on a TC Contender frame and in that barrel, the Federal Gold Medal Match has a smaller velocity standard deviation (with my current lot of ammo) with a smaller group size correlation than the Eley EPS (with that lot of ammo) when spread over ten, ten shot groups.   The Eley was not as consistent in my barrel and my scores are no better using it.  I guess that is because I can't look at a box of cartridges and pick out those that will give the least velocity deviation.  Others using the Eley ammo where I shoot are doing very well with it and they seem to like it a great deal.  The only way you are going to know if it shoots in your rifle is to . . . well, as Paul Harvey would say, you know the rest of that story.

David
I've tried it in a BSA Mk III and ISU both at 100yds and 200yds. It shot slightly better than my old lot (3-4 years old) of Wolf Match Target ammo but at 3x the price I went with the Wolf. I'll be running out of the Wolf soon and will have to see where to go next.

Doug, it's interesting that Lapua Midas L shot best in my old BSA as well.  Did not do nearly so well in my Ballard or low wall.  I've wondered if BSAs routinely like the oversized Lapua due to bore dimensions.  Don't have enough data on other BSAs however.

Brent

hi ho black prince,,

i can guaruntee, brents  testing is waaay more rigorous than my testing. as a matter of fact, any ones testing is better:D

i am known as being held out as a bad bad example for almost anything..


howsomever, the flat point of the ely is great for tree rats. it drops them like a hollow point. but, doesn't tear up the meat. best hunting ammo i've ever used..

..ttfn..grampa..

For an excellent overall view of 22 rimfire ammo get Steve Boelter's "Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition." He covers 22 and 17 rimfire, testing each one and gives a full report. Also discusses such topics as chambers and tuners.

The chambering of your barrel makes a big difference when it comes to ammo.  There are a lot of other factors as well.   My Anschutz prefers the Eley EPS.  I have a Stevens Favorite that does much better with the Lapua Midas L.

Pete

Hi ho xxgranpa,

I use the excellent Haned Line Tool that puts a flat on the bullet nose to increase terminal effectiveness.  One of the additional benefits of it when used on almost any brand of cartridge is that is also reduces the group size.  The group size reduction seems to be directly related to the price of the ammo in that the cheaper the ammo, the greater the effect on accuracy the tool has.  By that I mean it has a greater percentage effect on cheap ammo and not that it makes cheap ammo more accurate than better quality stuff.  

The tool has a much smaller overall effect on the Federal Gold Medal Match ammo, but even there, the effect is measurable when testing is done and accomplished in an organized manner.  That was the claim when the tool was offered and being the skeptic I am, I didn't believe it.  Both claims of increased acuracy and terminal performance have proven to be true.

I do not have the technical engineering skills to be able to explain why that flat point does what it does, but I am able to validate that it does and Eley knows that too.  If you want to save yourself a few bucks on accurate ammo, you might look into that flat point phenomenon.

Here is a report on the tool taken from a google search on the Internet for The Hanned Line.  As it happens, I know Homer Bloomfield very well and have known him for years.  He is a retired federal prison guard from Ohio, and he has a LOT of shooting experience.  He is detailed and meticulous in everything he does, but he is not a technical writer as his report will show.  
 
This is a Product Test Report by Homer Bloomfield.
Final report on the SGB tool test by Homer Bloomfield. 

Manufactured by, The HANNED LINE, "Simple Solutions", P.O. 2387, Cupertino, CA 95015-2378. 

This will summarize my testing of the SGB tool on .22 ammo. I had previously posted interim reports. If anyone wants those reports, please E-mail me at thtwit@zoomnet.net and I will provide them. They are too lengthy to re-post unless there is sufficient interest in the numbers crunching. 

There were a few surprises. One very good, one bad and not so small. Testing of the .22 short modified ammo pretty well followed the lines of the .22 LR test. 

Rather than quote 'chapter and verse' on the ballistics data I will attempt to shorten this report substantially by hitting on what I found most significant. I will list all ammo. both LR and short, that I have tested. At the end of the report in the order of most accurate first. With few exceptions, I found the following to be consistent: 

All average velocities increased after the SGB tool was used, as might be expected since it was lightening the load so to speak. 

All extreme spreads were reduced. 

All standard Deviations were reduced. 

All showed a measurable improvement in accuracy. 

I must make a confession here. After I finished the range testing, I could not make myself use 'factory ammo.' on varmints, vermin, black birds and game! I used the first four in the list, [see below] interchangeably on black birds, starlings, and garden munching bunnies. Most of these shots were under 40 yards, since I was using a rabbit ears bag on the window sill. The results were almost always lights out! Our old cat really laid around and got fat this summer. When I started squirrel hunting I went to the first two in the list and took squirrels out to 60+ yards. I took somewhere between twelve to fifteen squirrels, all but one were head shots. All dropped instantly and stayed where they dropped! The one exception was a NOSE shot on one that was looking straight at me, it pealed his incisors and took out both shoulders! 

I found that the application of the SGB tool created a much more accurate bullet. In fact one very pleasant surprise that I got out of this test was learning that the CCI HP short bullet after the SGB tool application, had a higher average velocity than some of the LR ammo. It was the second most accurate tested, coming in behind only the CCI LR HP mini-mag. It very quickly became the ammo of choice in my 14" T/C .22 LR match barrel. It shoots almost hole for hole as good as the CCI LR ammo without a scope change, makes less noise, does less damage to the meat and except for the federal valu-pak, it is cheaper by at least half than most of the other ammo. 

If you really want to raise some eye brows? Set down at the range with a box or two of SGB modified CCI HP shorts and your T/C contender and go to work at the 100 yard line!   

Problems I did have or find with the SGB tool: 

Availability? Even though mine were sent to me in order to do the test, I have been on constant lookout for these 'gadgets' from the time I first read about them. I have yet to find one in any sporting goods store, reloading or sporting catalog or at Wal-Mart? Had I found the tools I doubt seriously that I would have paid the $30.00+ retail price quoted in literature sent to me with the ones I have for the tools, that's over $60.00 if you buy both LR and Short versions. 

All the best to you xxgranpa.  

Another try at the bullet picture

hi ho bp,

on the old shooters.com. rimfire section. there was a guy selling the 'nose flatteners  for 12.50. bought two of them. 

filed down some noses and they worked as good as the high priced spread..

and like you say, the groups did tighten up slighty..

maybe if we knew where the rimfire bunch went, we would be able to get more of these gadgets.

with the flat noses, the groups get better or stay the same. it's a no lose situation.

..ttfn..grampa..

chrisj wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2007 at 4:19pm:


I sure don't know but I have to say the group sizes that Homer lists sure aren't impressive enough to convince me that is a good way to go.  And the original question was interested in 200 yds results which I would imagine would be even worse.   

If you go over to the rimfire forum on benchrest.com where some of the more serious .22 shooters hang out, you dont see them mention filing the noses off of bullets.  Haven't noticed that anywhere as a matter of fact (except squirrel hunters).   

Brent

Just looked up the rules and it only says shorts, longs or long rifle permitted. At the ASSRA matches I attend, I was told by the Schuetzenmeisters that only factory unaltered ammo only. No lube changes or reloaded rimfire ammo was allowed. Sorting factory ammo was permitted though. I suspect that altered bullets fall in the same category.

Yeah, I just can't see how those flatnosed bullets can be successful at 200 yds.  Say, I see the original poster is in Montezuma.  David, if you want, come on up to Steamboat Rock on the second Saturday morning in September, and if the range is back above water, you can see a bunch of guys shooting different .22s at 100 and 200 yds.  I think you will see some pretty darn good shooting and most of the best shooters will be using Eley EPS at 200 yds.  At 100 yds, Wolf Match Extra is okay, but the high dollar Eley is what comes out most often unless one has a stash of that old Federal 900B.

We would be glad to have you shoot with us so consider yourself invited.  I can provide directions to the range if you need them.

Brent

Man Oh man!  That's a lot of jingle. 
I just got off the phone with my son. We were talking about markup's and the price of motorcycle part's and helmet's. He work'd at an Audi dealership for about eight years. He told me that their base mark up was 300 percent. My how thing's have change'd. 

I think we should shoot offhand only and let the high price'd ammo sit on the shelf for a while. A long while!! 

I'm still using Fed 900.  If I dont practice with it, it should last me about another ten year's.

I wont be using it on Rat's and Mice that's for sure!         

                                                                       Joe.

My shop is the home of a lot of .22 rimfire ammo, I think of the dollars tied up and it reminds me of a conclusion I came to along time ago.

Unless your shooting in a tunnel to test, just find one that is acceptable and buy the heck out of it.

These rimfires remind me of gun powder, once you have made up your mind that this will work for you, buy enough to shoot for years or in the case of center fire till the rifeling is gone.

You got it 40-Rod.  That is why I use the little tool that puts a flat on the bullet nose that looks exactly like the flat on the Eley Match EPS.  I don't know what it does or how it does it, but it works and it is probably why that flat is on the Eley EPS match bullet. It increases accuracy of cheap cartridges so that I am able to shoot and practice so much that I can "think off" the shot because I can control the trigger so well.  Having that level of control and familiarity with my rifle contributes more to better scores for me than a small gain in over all accuracy from the super match cartridges available. The Eley yellow box is about as good a cartridge as I can use in a match because I can not shoot any better than those anyway.

But if you are a top rung shooter, any incremental gain in accuracy can be used to improve your scores.  If you are at my level, more practice and familiarity with my rifle is of more benefit to me since I can not take advantage of a small incremental accuracy gain because I don't have the skill level required to do that.

Many people don't put as much time and preparation into the mental part of shooting as they do in the hardware part.  The top pistol shooters I knew and know are big believers in the "see it perfect" line of thinking and I used to go through the entire match in my mind before even stepping into my squad relay at the match.  Having a calm state of mind and being relaxed is a big benefit to any shooter.  

I always try to shoot well. I even fanaticize that I can shoot with the top rifle guys.  But knowing that I am not expected to do that takes the pressure off and allows me to just shoot and enjoy it.  That contributes more to me shooting well than any other single thing.  

I know there are guys out there who can take advantage of the accuracy potential of the Eley EPS match cartridge and God bless'em all. 

I just ain't one of'em.  So sue me.

DWS8130, I agree entirely that 100 yd results will not necessarily translate to 200 yds.  At 100 yds, Wolf ME is very close to as accurate as Eley EPS in my low wall.  Not quite, but close.  At 200 yds, it is not close any more.  EPS wins hands down.   

I think that is well known in the centerfire world too.   The best load at 200 yds may not be the best load at 1000.  Just depends.   

Brent

I made my own tool to flat point .22 rimfires for squirrel hunting. Now, it is well known that I prefer the 25/20 Winchester for squirrel hunting (with my cast bullets, of course). That said, the Hanned style flat pointing seriously improves the .22 rimfire for hunting of edible small game. It has MUCH greater "stopping power" without the accompanying meat damage that a high speed hollow point gives. That really should not be surprise to those of us who hunt big game with handguns and relatively low powered black powder rifles. Flat points ARE the way to go as has been proved many, many times. 

Dale53

Quote:


But Brent, that wouldn't involve tinkering.

Good morning, Board;

The original question was about results at 100 and 200 yards.  A few months ago, I had the same kind of question come up about some Green Tag that I had used at a match (22rimfire silhouette).  On my part, it was a quick put together and the only thing I could get locally and quickly was the Green Tag.

At the match, I did reasonably well up to and including 150 yards.  At 200, I was all over the place.  I'd hit one and the next shot would be somewhere..... just somewhere.  Most of them kicked up dirt.

So, to see if it was really the ammo or just me, I found some Wolfe ME and compared it to the Green Tag.

I did it one cool still morning at about 7:00.  Condidtions were perfect.

I did the shooting off the bench with a Winchester 52D and Redfield Olympic sights.

At 100 yards, I fired ten conditioning shots with the Green Tag and then shot for group.  Then I fired ten conditioning shots with the ME and shot again.  The record groups were ten rounds each.

At 200 yards I fired the ME group and then fired ten conditioning rounds with the Green Tag and then fired a 10 shot group for record.

The 100 yards control group with ME measured almost exactly one inch center to center.  The Green Tag group was right at two inches.  Both groups were evenly distributed and round.

The 200 yard control group with ME measured very close to 2.1 inches center to center and was evenly distributed and round.  Now, for the surprise:  The green tag group had four rounds in the center in a group of about four inches.  There were not enough holes to comment on distribution.  The other six holes were in a rough circle eight to ten inches in diameter surrounding the center four.

The ME performed extremely well and I have since bought a lot more of it.  But the real interest here is the Green Tag.  Four of the bullets performed as expected at 200.  The four inch group was within the expected "cone of fire".  The six bullets surrounding the group of four were not.  My conclusion is that the Green Tag became unstable somewhere past 150 yards.  Remember, at the first, I said it did well on the 150 yard silhouettes, but not the 200.

I have seen centerfire (BPCR) bullets seem to do the same thing on the longer targets at and past 500 meters.

So, I guess the story has two moral points:

1.  If you want to know what a load will do at a distance, shoot it at that distance.

2.  There is no limit to good excuses to be found if you really want to do the work!

Y'all be good.

horsefly

Maybe this has been mentioned before but are any of you fellas familiar with the Nielson brothers work and their runout gauge?  It's an interesting read.   (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

greetings again all,

while i do like to play with 'nose flatteners'  and cheap ammo etc. and having cheap ammo that out shot the hi-priced spread, the ammo of choice for me, for a match, is the top of the line match stuff. not because it is more accurate, but for the lack of flyers.

have you ever shot the accurate lo-price stuff, had a great group going then for no reason at all, one goes 1" out?? well, pardner, it wern't you, it was the ammo.. the hi price stuff don't do that.

and that is the differance between losing a match and winning a match..

so for match shooting, spend the buck, by the good stuff. the lack of fliers make it worth the price.

..ttfn..grampa..

Quote:


Yeah, me too Brent, but apparently we're in the minority here in more ways than one (LOL)!
Regards, Joe

The only time I don't count flyers when testing ammo for accuracy or working on a rifle to tune it is when I call a flyer...when I know without checking the spotting scope that I've pulled one out of a group.  Of course, in a match, they all count, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish!

David
Montezuma, IA

Quote:


You have reached the core of the problem IMO. It's all too easy to fudge the numbers in one's mind, in order to make the story better. Most of the time it may be subconscious but most folks do it to some degree or other, my Father-In-Law had this problem and he passed the gene on to his daughter...

I save all test targets. All. And I keep a running record of group sizes & averages, two ways. One way includes all shots and the other way excludes but records the frequency and magnitude of any single flyer in each group. That gives me some idea about not only the average accuracy but also the consistency of each ammo.

Another productive trick is to number each shot in a group, as it forms. This means testing at a range long enough to ensure adequate separation of shots, and then marking-up a dummy target at the bench as you observe each shot through the spotting scope. I've discovered and analyzed several different kinds of problems simply by using this procedure. Of course first-shot problems are easy to spot anyway IF they are obvious, but this trick will show other problems in other areas also.

IMO a shot accurately 'called' out of the group is not a flyer. A flyer is an unexpected departure from the group, presumably not shooter-induced or at least not on a conscious level.
Good luck, Joe

greetings all,

please reread my post, i said,

"so for match shooting, spend the buck, by the good stuff. the lack of fliers make it worth the price. " 

and from that, brent said he measures fliers in his groups. don't know what the 'L' that has to do with shooting the better stuff in a match. but, i will say, 'good for you' you should include flyers in the group when shooting a match. 

..ttfn..grampa..


 

JoeB, with a revolver it's A Good Practice to test each chamber for accuracy and mark the least and most accurate ones. This was SOP before the advent of accurate semiautos.

In your Ruger Mk II, IMO a rebarrel is your best bet. I say this from the perspective of one whose Standard American Slow Fire average is still in the low 90s, IMO the Ruger barrels make good trot line sinkers but that's about all.

You'll never be able to tell the difference in the various 22 ammos in a handgun from the offhand position or even from sandbags, it's doable only from a machine rest. And the 'accuracy' is largely immaterial anyway since the shooter's INaccuracy is the determining factor in pistol shooting. If you'll use an ammo that's 100% reliable and one in which you have reasonable confidence, and spend your 'accuracy testing' time in more practice, you'll do as well as can be expected.

Come to think of it, that advice is good for rifles too.
Good luck, Joe