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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why the switch from octagon to round? (Read 14825 times)
Black_Prince
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Why the switch from octagon to round?
Aug 5th, 2007 at 10:00pm
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I'm a new pilgrim here on the ASSRA forum (ASSRA member No. 9959)and sorta new to this single shot/schultzen type of rifle shooting business.  It seems to me that in America at least, most rifles started out with octagon barrels.  Then they went to half octagon and half round barrels.  Now round barrels seem to be the norm.

I have been told that octagon barrels are harder to get to shoot well because cutting the flats on the barrel introduces "stress."  If that is the case, why didn't the old timers know that?  Can the "stress" be cured by cyro treatment?  Are the makers of firearms today cryoing their barrels or is there any truth to this "stress" business?  

In any case, why did the barrel makers switch from the octagon barrels to round ones? Was it to reduce "stress"?  Anybody know or have any ideas because I do not know and would appreciate any information on this you boys may have.
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2007 at 10:46pm by »  
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j sells
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #1 - Aug 5th, 2007 at 11:22pm
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I think some of your info is myth about oct barrels. I think the switch to round had more to do with economics than accuracy. Round barrels are easier to manufacture, less work and machining. I have had duds in both round and oct but as a rule the octs can be just as accurate as anything out there. Most octagons start as rounds anyway. Just my $02. Jerry
  

Jerry
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3sixbits
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #2 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 3:44am
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The issue of whether cyro works to relieve stress is one of the many crocks fostered on the unknowing public.

If you find out the purpose of cyro, then you would have to ask yourself, are my barrels made of tool steel? 

Anyone that spends the money on cryo and does not spend the money to talk to a metal manufacturer is kidding themselves.
  
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Black_Prince
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #3 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 9:31am
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All of that makes complete sense and I had suspected as much.  Last rifle I had made up with an octagon barrel cost a couple of hundred bucks more just in the milling, filing and timing processes.  When I watched the smith doing that, I can understand why he charged more and it is easy to see how a manufacturer could offer a product at a lower price if he didn't put all that time and labor into making the barrel octagon.

I keep hearing various people say that a round barrel shoots better.  In my limited experience, I don't see that as being an accurate statement. But when guys have been shooting various barrel shapes a lot longer than me and have a lot more experience doing that sort of thing, I tend to listen in an effort to learn.  Until about seven years ago, all I had ever shot had been factory round barrels.  Though I'd been shooting various rifles for 50 years, I had no experience with octagon barrels which I like a lot simply because they are traditional.  

As I get older, I value traditional things a lot more.  

Thanks fellas for the information.  I've got more questions for you boys because much of this kind of shooting, especially with black powder is sorta new to me.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #4 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 1:09pm
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BP,
Round barrels are traditional - in the UK.  And there might be some truth to the accuracy thing, in that a round barral needs less machining, hence less danger of messing things up.  After all, they start out round...  It's all in the skill of the person doing the work.
  
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Black_Prince
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #5 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 2:17pm
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Well Martini, I'm gonna become an outlaw by exceeding the speed limit when I  turn over 65 day after tomorrow on Thursday, and I've noticed lately that a lot of things just don't "look" right to me.  Round barrels for instance on single shot rifles and the new cars and trucks for another.  Where are the good looking cars built by Ford and Chevrolet in 1955, 56, 57, 58, and 59?  All we have now are these little boxes that look alike.

When I see a high wall with a round barrel on it, it jiss doan look right no kinda whicha way, no it doan.  An anybody that would put a round barrel onna Sharps rifalgun oughta be took out and whupped gud.

Course, my wife says I have "tunnel vision", whatever that means.  I think she's just being a smart aleck.  She also says I'm becoming an old fart.  I reckon that's better than becoming an old fuddy duddy.  A fuddy duddy would put a round barrel on a Sharps and play golf.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #6 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 4:00pm
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Yeah, but they would also put octagon barrels on Farqs or Martini's or other english single shots - that just doesn't look right!  And believe me, a Sharps with a round barrel with Rigby flats is a joy to behold...  Even if it is an 1877.   
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Best of all, these are historically accurate!  No, I'll take a round barrel every time - well, maybe on rare occasions a half-octagon...
  
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Brent
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #7 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 4:29pm
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Gert - that's not a round barrel. That's a RIGBY barrel. Big difference.

I'm two weeks from receiving a '77 (my first) so that picture just gets me all wound up!  Mine will be half octagon because.  Because there is probably no rifle barrel quite so difficult as a Rigby.  At least, so say the gunmakers who have made one.   

I have always thought that octagon barrels are a hold over from the days when barrels were hammered over mandrels and then filed smooth.  On can imagine that octagons might have been just as easy, if not easier, to hammer than round barrels would have been.

Brent
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #8 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 6:46pm
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I'd really be interested if any one has seen any articles the discuss or document this since it is a question I've always wondered about as well

speculation:   economics might have been a factor too.   iron and even more steel was hard to come by in the days of early firearms and wasting an extremely high priced material by reducing the octogon to a round by turning the excess into rapidly oxidizing file dust probably wasn't in the cards. 
  many of our firearms characteristics are well set in tradition and the hammer forge-welded barrel blank made up of strips or bars may well be the reason we had octogons well into the era of the industrial age.

  

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3sixbits
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #9 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 8:47pm
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The ability to recognize a no win argument when you see one is needed here.

I get a kick out of these arguements and just love to watch, most everyone that gets into this one, all have the peices of the puzzle, but just won't put them together? Wink
  
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Brent
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #10 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 8:52pm
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Quote:
The ability to recognize a no win argument when you see one is needed here.

I get a kick out of these arguements and just love to watch, most everyone that gets into this one, all have the peices of the puzzle, but just won't put them together? Wink



Well dude, if you got the goods, let's hear it?

Meanwhile, I don't see any arguments.  I see a lot of hypothesizing.  If you have the critical data, why not boot it out in the open?

Brent
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #11 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 9:58pm
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About 50 years ago when I was first hearing the old guys talk about gunsmithing, they said, IIRC, that old barrels (flintlock era) were made octagon because they could be made that way by hand by draw filing, while a smoothly turned round barrel would have required more machinining which was not economical if available at all.  The custom barrels of the Golden Age of Single Shots tended to be round, so I think the charm of old fashioned was trumped by practical performance.  JMHO, and you know how bad amphibian memories are!  Roll Eyes

Froggie
  
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Brent
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #12 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 10:42pm
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Frog, a custom vs run-of-the mill might be part of the answer.  If round was more difficult then it had one of the prime qualities of a custom gun.   

Brent
  
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3sixbits
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #13 - Aug 7th, 2007 at 6:53am
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Quote:
Quote:
The ability to recognize a no win argument when you see one is needed here.

I get a kick out of these arguments and just love to watch, most everyone that gets into this one, all have the pieces of the puzzle, but just won't put them together? Wink



Well dude, if you got the goods, let's hear it?

Meanwhile, I don't see any arguments.  I see a lot of hypothesizing.  If you have the critical data, why not boot it out in the open?

Brent


No Brent, your gear and everyone else's is to limited to make any type of effective test. There is just to much going against the type of gear we all love, in the single shot game, to prove one way or the other.

The actions are not made to be true in-line to the bore, scopes are mounted on the barrel. It's a long list of problems that on analyzes, would prevent objective reasoning followed with effective conclusions.

The next problem comes from the fact, that no matter how many barrels you or anyone else are willing to buy, it would never be enough
to satisfy the people with opposing views. 

Then there would be doubts about the bullets used, did they shoot in a tunnel, etc.

It is an endless argument, sort of," want to watch me chase my tail" ?  
  
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Brent
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Re: Why the switch from octagon to round?
Reply #14 - Aug 7th, 2007 at 8:15am
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huh?  What does this have to do with the orgins of early octagon barrels?   

Brent
  
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