Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) the 45-70 inadequate? (Read 17028 times)
PowderFlask2
Ex Member


the 45-70 inadequate?
May 4th, 2007 at 7:58pm
Print Post  
I just received an ASSRA Journal dated Sept-Oct 2006 Vol 60 Number 6.

There is an article by Russ Friend on the Springfield sporting rifle in which Russ asserts that the 45-70 developed for the 1873 was one of the most popular cartridges of the time and was used to kill American bison...but was quite inadequate for the job.

I have seen several 45-70 soft lead, round nose bullets shoot completely through buffalo when they didn't hit bone, did anyone else read this and have the same incredulous reaction that I did?

Gary
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 11432
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #1 - May 4th, 2007 at 8:05pm
Print Post  
I read that too. Writers make mistakes too.  Grin

                                                                                 Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Ex Member
*****


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #2 - May 4th, 2007 at 9:15pm
Print Post  
There may be better calibers for bison, but I wouldn't call the .45-70 inadequate for the job.
  
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #3 - May 4th, 2007 at 9:27pm
Print Post  
I suppose it varies a lot depending on the range.  At closer ranges the 45-70 loads of that era would do the jo fine, and did.
However during the latter days of the buffalo extermination campaign when the huge herds had been thinned way down and the buffalo had become much more wary; I imagine that the longer range more powerful cartridges with better SD ratios were more effective.  If my reading is correct, and remembered correctly, that was only after 80% m/l of the herd was done.
  As I recall more of them were killed off with CW surplus arms and the early trapdoors than any other arms.   The so-called "buffalo cartridges" and "buffalo guns" were a relatively late development
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SPG
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #4 - May 6th, 2007 at 11:56am
Print Post  
Gentlemen,
I'm not a buffalo hunter, but the ones I've shot with a .45-70 folded up pretty well. However, they weren't shot in the guts from 500 yards.

420-gr. Lyman 457193, cast 1-40, 70 grains 3FG Swiss. This seems to work pretty good on elk, moose and bear also.

The .45-70 was popular on the frontier because it was an efficient round for hunting and was stocked by the military.

Many frontier hunters shot meat for the mining camps, forts, and hotels as well as hunting bufflao for hides. If I had been knocking around in those days, a .45-70 would have been right at the top of the list of preferred calibers...just like it is with me today.

Gute Ziele,

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #5 - May 6th, 2007 at 10:05pm
Print Post  
And don't forget that Buffalo Bill shot many hundreds of Buffalo with "Lucretia Borgia", a .50/70 trapdoor. A much weaker cartridge than the .45/70.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
3sixbits
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #6 - May 6th, 2007 at 10:31pm
Print Post  
Every year here in Alaska, brown bear, black bear,  moose and bison are killed using the .45-70 ctg. I don't really know if that is considered as adequate. However, beyond dead is??????
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Steve B
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #7 - May 8th, 2007 at 12:54am
Print Post  
Everone has an opinion and entittled to it, but after using a 45-70 this year for a 750lb feral boar, I would never consider the 45-70 inadequate in my book ever again.

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #8 - May 8th, 2007 at 8:16am
Print Post  
It's just barely within the realm of possibility that the lighter carbine load of 55 gr powder and a soft-cast 405-gr bullet wouldn't give satisfaction on a bison - maybe.

However, a 30-1 or 40-1 Lyman 457125 (the 500-gr Government bullet) will handily kill anything on this continent with one shot. Every time. I've seen it.
FWIW, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #9 - May 8th, 2007 at 9:36am
Print Post  
In terms of buffalo hunting you also have to consider that the hunters had a different mindset than we have today.  Us "Modern" hunters have developed a sense of ethics and sportmanship that was not relevant in those days--infact most of our enthical hunters would have been run out of town or starved back then.

The gvmt simply and purely wanted the buffalo dead dead dead. Exterminating the buffalo was a national strategic policy. If they could have poisoned them off they'd have done it.  they wanted the economic props kicked out from under the Indians and the land freed from Indians and roaming buffalo herds for settlers.

The hunting styles of both the indians and the buffalo hunters was to get in close to the herds, shoot'em, follow them until they dropped and then skin and butcher them wherever that was. Quick kills and short tracking was nice but not all that critical.  There were crews to do the follow up and processing,  families for the NA, and either hired men or assigned soldiers for the commercial/military meat hunters.  Long range accuracy was a matter of pride of course as it is with any rifleman, but it was not a critical factor until later when the herds had been almost exterminated.

For the later commercial hide hunters it was more advantageous to have them in as close a bunch as possible for the skinners to work more efficiently
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #10 - May 8th, 2007 at 6:18pm
Print Post  
QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on May 8th, 2007 at 9:36am:
The gvmt simply and purely wanted the buffalo dead dead dead. Exterminating the buffalo was a national strategic policy. If they could have poisoned them off they'd have done it.  they wanted the economic props kicked out from under the Indians and the land freed from Indians and roaming buffalo herds for settlers.


Actually, this is pretty much internet and PC-legend.  A scholarly investigation of the issue failed to find any evidence of this as an official government policy in any way.  It was economics and technology (the developed need for belting for industrial machining and tanning techniques) that doomed the bison.  The govt. may  have been quite happy with the side effects but they were not actively engaged in causing this to happen for this end in and of itself.  

There is a heck of a lot of myth about bison hunters in general and a bit of research will show a lot of deviations from accepted gospel.  You might look into the work of Dan Flores, a well regarded historian, Chair of the Dept of History at Montana State U. and ex-gunwriter as a starting point.  There has been lots of interest in estimating the numbers of bison killed as well.  The more rational and defensible estimates are a fair bit under the accepted guesses in the 60 million range.  

Brent

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #11 - May 8th, 2007 at 7:51pm
Print Post  
Not surprising,  anything like that has become overlaid with myth like a pearl.  I was being a bit too broadbrushed in my comment.  I was thinking more of the War Dept and "Indian Dept" policies. The federal gvmnt was pretty well paralized with reconstruction and post reconstruction politics, and pretty much let the army and the "indian dept" people run things between the Mississippi and the Rockies-at lest in the norther area.   For them buffalo migrations, particularly the northen herd were a powerful disincentive to the reservation way of life 

can you PM me any of Flores titles, they'd be a good area of expansion in my library.


  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #12 - May 9th, 2007 at 1:52pm
Print Post  
I no longer keep databases of titles so I don't have them handy.  But, punch 
Dan Flores buffalo 
into google or scholar.google.com and you will get a lot of hits.

Brent
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Joe_S
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 29th, 2004
Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #13 - May 13th, 2007 at 1:05pm
Print Post  
I have heard that the 45-70 was always one of the most popular calibers in the west, partly because it was the govt cartridge and partly because, the govt gave the ammo away to assist in killing off the buffalo. dont know if that is true or not but I do not believe the 45-70 to be inadequate in any way as a hunting cartridge. Joe S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
3sixbits
Ex Member


Re: the 45-70 inadequate?
Reply #14 - May 13th, 2007 at 7:36pm
Print Post  
Sadly I traded off (years ago) a trap door Springfield in .45-70, that was an issue item to the settlers of the Arizona Territory. There is a long history of firearms issues to the public for different government programs. The last I know of was to the Territorial scouts here in Alaska. 1917 Enfields along with ammo, was a great way to get the native people to join.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Send TopicPrint