another 22rf topic.

We are all familiar with the "cold barrel" 1st shot zeroing that hunters and especially snipers work toward with high-power rifles.  as the barrel heats up and expands the barrel shifts enough to move bullet impact.   this is pretty well established and documented.

Shooting at Etna G in the 22rf matches I have noted a similar occurrance.  my first shots out of a cold barrel will be low by a couple inches and to the left.  Over 5 or 6 shots the bullet strike moves up and right and then stabilizes.   I noticed this with the low wall first and then the round barrelled BSA.  At the Fall 22rf match with the Swiss Federal rifle which has a much heavier oct barrell it seemed to take several more shots to settle down than the smaller barrelled  BSA.  I imagine the #3 win profile barrel on the ruger will be similar.
 I have noted but not documented that some times on cool mornings the barrel will cool enough between relays to start dropping the first shot ot two ---yet later as the day warms up-- the break between relays does not have as much effect.

I don't see the 22rf as generating THAT much heat, enough to cause the barrel to shift enough to move the impact point.   I'm thinking is is more a matter of warming the barrell just a little, just enough to make the waxey lube softer, slipperier.  The dropping initial bullets must be due to loss of velocity due to more friction in the barrell.

does this make sense? has anyone else noted it and come up with a better explaination.

I can see that, at those chilly temps the barrels would stay cold, so the lube would have consistant consistancy no matter how many 22s you put through it- at least at single shot rifle pace.  Now if you were blasting 30 round clips through a light barrell 10-22 as fast as you could trip the trigger it might be a different story.

I was taught to throw away the first three shots.  In Davenport this was so common that when the range was moved, the concentration of lead in the dirt in front of the shooting house was as high as in the backstop.

A few years ago in practices I shot the first 20 shots from a sandbag on the bench to isolate some skills, followed by my usual offhand 20 to 60 shots.  This was indoors at 50 feet in June and July (hot in the range).  The first shot tended to be several rings out, high and left (on the rings of Davenport's indoor target).  The second shot was about a ring out, high and slightly left. the third was low.  The fourth was where it should be.  During the first ten shots after that, I might change the sights a click or two, but if I did I took the change out during the second ten shots, returning the sight settings to where they were after the previous day.

From this, I think it takes 10 to 15 shots for my rifle to settle down.  Shooting offhand, the difference between the first 10 and second ten shots is less important than a whole lot of other stuff, so I usually don't worry about it.

Recently in a Precision Shooting article by Bill Calfee he proposed that if you stop shooting for more than a minute or so you should wipe out your bore because the fouling "hardens" and can be the cause of fliers. I wonder if the "cold barrel" syndrome is due to hardened lube/fowling?

It may be like rediscovering the wheel for those who have had plenty of small-bore competition experience, but I for one have not had the privilege of that. I need all the wheel-discovering I can get and I really appreciate everyone's willingness to share info.  Based on the increasing number of guys who are showing up athe 22-only matches at EG, I'm probably not the only one

In that light, I might mention that the current issue (April 2007) of precision shooting has an interesting article about small bore barrels and conditioning entitled " Final Finish;  fire lapping a winchester 52 sporter"  I have not finished it yet myself and I know that fire lapping is a controversial topic.  but it also has some other interesting info.

What 4227 said. Regards, Joe

This dissertation reminds me of when I was on the U.S.Army Caribbean Rifle Team and some of the session we had there.
One was on the ability and learning on how to CONCENTRATE on the subject at hand.   
  We were in a classroom with the shades drawn. Each of us had a candle in a holder in front of us. We lit the candle as instructed, then the instructor turned off the lights. We were to stare at our own candle on till we could separate the different colors of the flame and then describe each portion of the flame along with the shape and different colors.

The ability to concentrate on the necessary and shut out the un-necessary. This is a learned practice and does not come-by easily. How many times have we been on the line and someone tells a joke and we start listening to them rather than what we are doing. That's how double loads happen. Or, we are in the midst of a good string and we are distracted and do not notice a slight wind change? 

Reading the wind is a totally different topic. Jim Borton is one of the best wind readers shooting right now that I know of. There is no substitute for shooting to learn on what the wind is doing. Watch the flags, watch the grass, watch the smoke/dust. Watch what is happening to other shooters.
A lot to watch, but if you are shooting, this is what you need to do. Concentrate. How many of you can visualize a target, say the A-36 and superimpose your crosshairs on it with a bullet hold dead center, all in your mind such that you can "SEE" the printing specks on the paper?  That is concentration.   
  This is how we learn to shoot. Concentrate and shoot. There you go, your lesson for now.
Try the candle trick and see if it works for you. I still do it now and then.  Good Shooting,   4227   

Quote:


Mr. Horsefly:

I will listen. How much do you pay?


Concentration is a Real Big player in high level performance of any kind. Patience is another positive but elusive part of the puzzle.

I think that is what the "Zone" is all about. If you have ever been in the zone you will recall how easy it was to perform well. So very simple.  Perhaps this is the key. Doing well is simple because you make it simple, focusing on what you need to with no other mental clutter getting in the way.

I wish I knew the secret of calling up that state of mind at will...

Glenn

Quote:


Well, to be fair I will allow as how listening is not exactly my strong suit. In fact, I dare say that I don't ever recall actually trying it. Still, always eager to learn, don't you know. Might come in handy some day, what?

Glenn

Don thats about what I've concluded too.  if it is cold enough out, the slight amount of heat generated by a 22rf in a heavy barrel at our ss shooting pace means that each shot is a cold barrel shot, and we can adjust our sights accordingly.  likewise on a hot/warm summer day the ambient temps will have the barrel fairly warm to start with so the lube works fairly well.   
the problem is spring and fall days where it starts cold and gets sorta warm maybe and the ambient temp range is just enough to thicken the lub a little in the pause between relays.

I'd love to find some sort of digital readout temperature sensor I could tape to the barrel--maybe two of'em one over the chamber area and one close to the muzzle--so I could do some experimenting.  I'd record time of day, ambient temps, and barrel temps on the targets and see what patterns develop.

It'd be interesting to see how the heavy barrel on the Ruger compares to slenderer barrel on the BSA.

I agree with the warming-the-lube theory, and always have thought so. Back in the day, 20-30 yrs ago, I refused to use Federal ammo because of their waxy lube that would gum up the works quickly. However, their much-improved dimpled ammo shot very well indeed while it was avaialble so I figured that they may have solved their problems. But now, with their super-duper ammo no longer available, I'm content with Eley. Have found that there's little or no difference in POI between the various Eley ammos regardless of the number of seasoning rounds fired, and so now I just practice with Standard and switch to Tenex without  seasoning.

But then again, I'm not what you'd call a very good shooter either.(BG)
Good luck, Joe

good info.   I was just looking at a new book on the 22rf ammo/accuracy issues that "rimfire" bought at Sinclairs.  I'm going to try to find a review copy ofr the J  it has some interersting info and thr author tested a lot of different ammo.  problem with iot was that he is a BR50 shooter so there was no evaluation of ammo performance at the longer ranges.  he had some interresting thoughts on lubes, cleaning etc etc.

this weekend at EG I did note that I was able to switch between Wolf TM and ME without much more than a small elevation adjustment----once the gun was 
"warmed up"  what ever that really means.  simplest reason being that they use the same lube on both.   maybe an outfit like ely with a whole range of specific target ammo may use different lubes and there would be a longer time span to accomodate a change between ely ammos with different lubes.

I also noted that with the #3 win profile 22 barrel that it took 15 or so shots first thing in the morning when the temps weredown right chilly.  Later in the day, (especially Sat which was quite warm and windy) if I sat out a relay and let the barrel cool to ambient temps it only took 5 or 6 to get them grouping again.   
another new lesson was that the tight match chamber that Steve put in the Ruger requires more tending to than the other .22 rifles I've used.  however it was very well worth the effort.

Joe,  Steve Durren made a real neat little match chamber cleaner a few years abck and I was able to buy the last of the old ones.  However he's going to run up another batch now that the 22rf is catching on pretty well in ASSRA. its adjustable so you can set it to fit a specific chamber and really works slick. Cleans right up to the beginning of the leade

In terms of the Ely lubes I was thinking specifically of there POSSIBLY being a different lube for their biathalon ammo.  they have some real tough conditions.  cold weather.  no warmup or fouling rounds and a fair amount of chill down time between their shooting "relays"   That Biathalon ammo must be something special.   We got to thinking about it Sat am whe it was dead calm--or at least as dead calm as it gets at EG--but in the low 40's.  then it got up to near 80 by the middle later afternoon.

I don't know if any of the other 22rf match ammo makers make a specific Biathalon ammo or not.

FYI   I just found the website and online date for that book and publisher, go to:

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Thanks Tim, I'll try IOSSO.

I ran into the same deformation issues, BTW.
Regards, Joe

About 3 years ago, I went on a Club visit to the Eley factory. Tenex is expensive because it is virtually hand made. Cheaper types of ammo are produced on automatic machines. The lube is a mixture ot beeswax and tallow: they6 did not tell me the proportions. Eley have searched for something better for the last 100 years or so and have not found it. users of semi-auto rifles have complained about build up of lube in the receiver and so Eley now offer a special ammo for this purpose and this uses a dry lube. I was given some to test and it was less accurate in single shots but OK in my old BSA pump action.
Fred.

tim_s wrote on May 1^st, 2007 at 8:46am:


Tim, I'd love to try the stuff, if you'll tell me where I can find/order it.  Thanks!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Tim:

Thanks!   I asked because sometimes products that are recommended here are cooked up in somebody's basement and only available from that person ... and the person doing the recommending just assumes that all of us snuffies know the source personally ...

BTW, I also found that Midway carries it ....

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Resp'y,
Bob S.