Good morning, Board;

Hst said, "I will listen. How much do you pay?"

I don't know..... how well do you listen?

Y'all be good.

horsefly

    The early posts in this thread remind me of conversations I have had or (or shamelessly eavesdropped on!) with long-time smallbore shooters and/or Rimfire BR shooters. The impression I have formed from such discourses is that the changing POI has to do with the warming of the lube "seasoning" in the bore. Along with this is the belief, especially among the RF BR shooters that .22 rimfire bullet lubes are not created equal. When Federal was still in the real match ammo business (Gold Medal) many of the BR shoters had abandoned this otherwise excellent ammo due to problems they attributed to the lube.
    If you think about it .22 rimfire shooting is simply lead bullet shooting. Probably the only thing about .22 RF shooting different from our centerfire shooting is that we have no control about the ammo.

Good morning, hst;

DEAL!!!!  You listen like I pay!

Now, on the thread topic, I think I agree with the folks that think they are warming the lube instead of the barrel.

Y'all be good.

horsefly

I might offer up a couple of thoughts. I shoot .22 benchrest in IR 50 matches most weekends from April-October in a variety of temps. We are shooting some pretty sophisticated rigs and pushing $12 a box ammo  through probably the best .22 barrels on the planet. The early shot movement probably has little to to with barrel temps,especially heavier ones. It requires a few shots to put nice clean stable lube in the bore, once lube is stabilized, shot stability is achieved. Most guns should be cleaned. Most of the top BR shooters clean guns, with brushes, just like a quality center fires. A .22 also needs attention in the chamber-throat because over time a hard ring of carbon and lead will build up and  top performance will diminish. You should be particularly attentive of cleaning if switching brands. Understand, if you are not shooting at 1/4" ten rings at 50 yards this is not as critical, but the principles are valid. Hopes this helps some.

QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:18pm:


Wayne, it's my impression that Eley specifically uses the same or a very similar lube with most of their ammo, especially the target stuff. At least that's the way I believe it used to be, before the change. I was fortunate enough to find a few bricks of early-'60s Tenex, same lot #, from an estate, and used it in some of my 22LR testing. Also used another few bricks of late-'90s Tenex, again all same lot #, and maybe two boxes of late-'90s Standard for initial sight-in. There was essentially no difference in the POI of the 3 different types of ammo, about the same as the difference between lots produced in the same year. Same with the accuracy, the older Tenex wasn't quite as accurate as the later ammo but the difference was minor and again was about the same as I've seen between different lots produced in the same year. The lube on the older ammo was beginning to turn white with age but still shot better than I can.

The aforementioned tests are still ongoing but have slowed down a lot. Tenex is expensive these days! Have tested ~ a dozen walls & a number of other 22LR single shots, am on my fifth test brick of Tenex now. Yes, I know a BSA will outshoot any wall but I like low walls.

I tried to make a tool to remove the dreaded ring at the chamber mouth but finally gave up. Glenn would have no trouble but I'm not even a journeyman machinist much less a toolmaker and so sometimes..............Anyway, now I just use the same Clymer match reamer that cut the chamber, it cleans out all the crud without any problems if used with discretion and a sensitive touch.
Regards, Joe

Joe, the current ELEY has the best .22 lube ever created by the hand of man, without question. Even in old bores it works well. I,ve been testing , among, others , a beutifull Stevens Walnut Hill in .22 short. The bore is about average for a black powder era .22. After complete cleaning, I started to run some of the ELEY match shorts down the tube @ 40yards [our indoor max] and even with the origional Stevens scope this thing shootgs little bitty round holes. 
  As to the mechanical chamber cleaners, there are 2 issues which compromize them. Frank Tirrell made a great one several years back but kind of abandoned it for three reasons. First, over time the nature of the ring in the leade is quite hard- over time it tends to deform the tool making it less effective. Second, often, the hard fouling can extend up into the grooves where the tool cannot get. Third and most importantly we've discovered the modern cleaners simply do a better job. For my benchrest guns I have used IOSSO bore cleaner. It's a white cream, it's billed as non-abrasive but it is very mildly so. Take a short rod with a nylon brush, wrap a patch soaked up with the IOSSO and short stroak it in the throat 5-6 times. It does a beautifull job of keeping the throat clean and tends to put a nice polish there-buffing the tool marks and ultimately leadiing to a reduction in the combustion ring.This tecnique works quite well on match stainless barrels which are considerably softer than the chrome moly type steels often used in these applications. I'd wager any of these .22 maintainence tips will help .22's perform better IMHO.

Quote - Recently in a Precision Shooting article by Bill Calfee he proposed that if you stop shooting for more than a minute or so you should wipe out your bore because the fouling "hardens" and can be the cause of fliers. I wonder if the "cold barrel" syndrome is due to hardened lube/fowling?
I also just read an article Calfee wrote sometime last year, in wich he said that lead forms in a barrel and will affect the group for the first shot. Shooting the old Federal match (with dimple) in IBS 50yd matches, I did find leading toward the end of my 20" Shilen and Douglas barrels. Reason given was running out of lube! Eley ammo did not seem to have as much of a problem. Now, with the almost 28" brl on my Lowall I'm sure the problem is even more prevelant (I haven't had enough time with it yet). So, in the meantime, I do at least run an Ed's Red patch through the barrel and use a bristle brush on it each night.

Quote:

Fred, 
  In the last year or so there was a great article published about ELEY in Rifle Shooter mag and others. It included facts about production including the fact that EVERY EPS bullet is visually inspected on a  computer screen before seating. Powder charges are measured with a special laser to confirm consistant load density. The primer compound is spun in the case in a centrifuge then allowed to dry. This is the EPS in ELEY. [Eley Priming System]. A major breakthrough however is the quality of the lube in combination with a redesigned drive band on the high grade ammo. This is what Bill Calfee helped with over a period of time. It not only scrapes a lot of crap out of the bore but it allows for a great distribution of that beautifull lube down the barrel. That is why the holes on the target do not look very black, each slug is going down a cleaner bore. Lots of folks are unaware of how abrasive combustion residue is from rimfires. The priming compounds leave a form of silicate residue just like broken glass. This is why most .22 ammo suggests not dry-patching after shooting because of the hard fouling. ELEY will allow that...BUT you must do it in the first couple minutes after firing while the lube remains soft. Remember this information applies more to stainless match bbls. which are considerably softer but the principles apply to any target type envirenment. 
   Sorry to go on a bit long but these benchrest .22's are on the leading edge of unbelievable consistancy and barrel maintainence considering they are pushing a soft deformable lead slug down range 50 yards, often at a dot about 1/32" and hitting it with amazing regularity. Hope this helps.