I imagine that for most of the ASSRA competetive shooters the 22rf is pretty much a side show to the main event.  However I have really taken a serious shine to the 22 only matches.  I had Steve D put together a new 22 for me over the winter and I'm ready to start playing with it.

Has anyone come up with a rational and practical system for evaluating 22 rf ammo.  I've read over the years about it and it all seems to boil down to:  buy as many different kinds as you can and then shoot'em all and when you find the one your gun like best try to buy as much of that ammo/lot as possible.  I'd like to be able to narrow that down a bit if there is a more rational process.

I've got the new 22 to play with at the 22 rf matches and need to try to find some thiog that works with it.   I mostly shoot the 200 yd Schoyen.  the barrel is a GM and Steve cut it with a match chamber.   I just don't have a clue as to where to start.   I still have a couple bricks of Wolf TM as well as some odds and ends of other stuff, but it is all probably from long sold off lots.  So I'm guessng my few boxs of this and that old Federal GM or Ely won't tell me much.  That is unless the minor lot to lot variations within a trand/type are less than variations between brand/types.   Any opinion on that.

I have spent some time on wwwrimfirecentral, but they don;t seem to have the same orientation.  Is there a site that is more oriented to the .22rf precision shooting guys?

DWS

Testing is often written about in the popular shooting press. However rifle companies producing high grade target rifles test all with a single brand of ammo.  Most of us have test targets from rifles makers like Anschutz and Kimber that show the brand and lot. They don't switch around looking for something the rifle likes. 

Top teams, Olympic, Service, College etc almost all pick a brand and stay with it for all rifles.  They may test Ely against Fiococi or used to test against Federal when they were paying sponsorship money but when they do it's machine rest indoors with the rifles they employ (and they almost always use the same brand of rifle) Once they have confirmed the ammo will shoot the actual choice depends on sponsorship or endorsement deals. 

There is no doubt team members will have some prefrence for one lot or another however it's not something the coaches cater to.  Think about the logistics of transporting top shooters to the Olympics each wanting to use his own "pet" ammo that he feels will shoot like no other in his rifle. Matching ammo to rifles is just not done at top levels.   

If a well known brand of match ammo throws a large group the rifle and conditons as well as hold and bench methods are generaly at fault.
I see people at our club range all the time going through box after box with small samples and conditons that are not contolled, then declaring one is better than another based on data thats suspect.  The holy grail of all testing is the brand that shoots 5 shots tigher than any other and comes from Wal-mart at a couple of bucks a box. 

I recomend making a choice based on whats avalable to you in your area or from one of the big mail order suppliers. Look carefully at  reputation, results in local as well as major matches. I like to have a Match and Pratice grade that use the same bullet, velocity, and lube too. Lay in a large supply then take some long run test to confirm it truly shoots to standard. If you shoot the same brand long enought you will get a feel for flyers or inconsistency.  Then spend your time on Conditons & Positon forgetting about the ammo completly. 

I feed one rifle with Ely beause thats all it has ever shot. Another with Federal for the same reason. When my stock of Federal match runs out will run them all on Ely.  I don't think it's going to cost me any points. 

Boats

QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2007 at 5:35pm:


Yes, but everytime I post it, I catch hell.   

Test it like you would test anything else with control, replication, and a serious eye towards variance.

Brent

Yeah, but you would be back again  in no time.  Your handle ought to be Phoenix... 

Brent

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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Apr 14^th, 2007 at 11:16am:


This is a relatively common occurrence with some CFs, notably those with fast twists, but I personally have never seen it with RFs. That doesn't mean much though, since I'm not that experienced (yet) at the 200-yd RF stuff. I, also, would be very interested in data on this question.
Regards, Joe

When you stretch out beyond 50 or 100 yards there are so many more factors that come into play, wind drift for one, bench technique becomes critical, perhaps as much asor more than lot variations between batches of quality ammo.  To me since I don't have access to a 1000 yard range is is almost the ultimate rifleman's challange.


When I talk to most non-ASSRA shooters about shooting 200 yds with a 22rf in match shooting they look at me like I was talking about using a pogo-stick to go to the moon.

Harken back to yesteryear, about 1990, when the late legendary Buddy Street of Richmond, VA. shot those sub MOA groups at 200 yds. Buddy used, I believe, a Dorn Ballard (Ballard converted to striker ignition), about 8 wind flags, and infinite patience. He shot those groups at the Fairfax VA club, a site often so wind free as you look down range at under certain light conditions and watch the insects flying in a circular pattern. Ah, so patient, hard to tell if old Buddy was breathing. In fact, the Buddy Street rule was started which meant that if Buddy keeled over first person yelling "dibbs" got his rifle. I am sure
he shot a few five shoters just about 1". This was printed years ago
in the SSJR. I had a Arthur Hublek barreled low wall which held about 2.5" with cheap PMC ammo. I think Charle McNett got that rifle and is now probably in Gary Quinlins hands.

The A21 target was used for Summer League at Old Colony when I was there 25 years ago ... Fitzy will tell us if it is still in use.   It was 200 yards standing on your hind legs, any rifle, any sights; and there were a number of folks who shot 22 RF's.    I seem to recall Fitzy shooting a 22 RF Ballard.  The other kicker was, the match was fired after dinner on a week nite ... under the lights!   Anything over 180 was considered a pretty good score.

I still have a bunch of the A21's that I got from National Target a few years ago: I used to shoot my Model 52C prone at 200 yards until NVGC got shut down.   

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Eley operate a Customer Range, which is run by a friend of mine, Bert Brookes. The reason for this is that ammo varies slightly from batch to batch. You take your own rifle along: Bert has a variety of bench rest fixtures to suit all actions. The action is removed from the stock and fitted to the bench where several batches of Tenex can be evaluated.
having matched ammo to rifle, the whole batch can be purchased or reserved. This means that Eley will keep the batch for the individual customer, allowing it to be purchased as required. I know that it is a long way from Birmingham UK to the USA, but some Olympic competitors make the trip, as do the Europeans.
Fred.

boats wrote on Apr 17^th, 2007 at 7:59am:


Whoa dude!!!  Let's not go overboard there.  The data can be valid.  The testing will be different and will be voluminous but it will be valid as all get out.  Field testing of any hypothesis can be done with a  modicum of care in test design and execution.   

Brent

    I think its about time that the ASSRA gets rid of the no barrel tuners rule.  
   If you are the individual that for whatever reason winds up with a .22 rifle that due to length, or weight of barrel so that it  is tuned to a particular brand of ammunition that shoots very small groups you probably don’t need a tuner.  For the rest of us we are left with buying many different brands of match ammo to find the one that shoots best in our rifle.
    A tuner would sure simplify the ammo selection process and probably save you more than the price of the tuner in the long run.

Boats, I do not entirely disagree with your subjective comments.  But I am much afraid that they are generally misinterpretted.  What passes for testing in the world of amatuer shooting is pretty much guarenteed to produce unreliable results.  That one can do MUCH MUCH better is pretty evident to anyone that understands testing processes and data analysis.   

Brent

Alan, 
With an emphasis on "practical" as well as valid I have proposed - and actually use-  the following:
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There are more powerful mehtods of course, and one of them is glossed over briefly in that website.  However, it is, in my experience, a bit impractical.   

I have discovered that MANOVA approaches have been used by benchrest shooters developing loads that have many variables to be considered (unlike .22 rf).  They have been published under another name, but I know the methods as MANOVA and can't recall what lable has been used in such publications.  Nonetheless, the methods are out there.  In fact, my approach could be extended to MANOVA analyses w/o too much difficulty.

Brent

Say, I'll take you up on that cool one.  Sounds mighty good after a long day of slinging lead.   

As for the number of targets, 10 or 12 is a "nice" number.  But what the heck does that mean?  Well, it is a little tricky to describe and in fact, the description of statistical power - which is what is involved here - is lengthy.  But in a nutshell, I think I can make it sort of intuitively logical, if not exactly precise.

Suppose you have a 2 moa rifle.  Not especially good - maybe you are in early load development or the first stages of .22 ammo selection or whatever.  Realistically, you really expect to be to shoot 1 moa or better.  Well, you all know that cutting that 2 moa average down to 1.5 moa is pretty easy and it won't take many tricks to do it.  When you are looking for and expecting fairly large improvements in accuracy, then you will not need many targets.   

However, when you get it down to 1 moa and then get to feeling greedy and want to see if you can shave it down a little more,  - well a small improvement will be very hard to detect with the same level of minimial confidence that you had when you found the big changes earlier.  So, separating the CCI hv ammo from the top of the line Lapua and Ely flavors might be pretty easy - 5-6 targets.  But separating the Lapua from the Ely might be quite a bit more difficult, requiring more targets.   

There are mathematical functions that more precisely predict the number of samples required, but it gets a bit hairier.  So, 10-12 seems like a good number for most purposes.  But keep in mind if you are looking for really subtle differences - say between two batches of primers for instance, or two batches of the same top-grade ammo - then expect to shoot a lot more.   

Brent

mes;

I understand what you are saying but he Rimfire BR shooters with high tech bolt guns with tuners continue to test ammo just as described here.

I agree with boats/JD Steelere: get a good ammo then spend time practicing whether that be offhand or bench shooting. At 200 yards, for most of us, practicing reading conditions, position, bench rechnique, etc until we can consistently shoot the best groups with THAT AMMO will let us know if another brand is really better. I will admit that the confidence factor has a lot going for it.
I have often said and will say again that most of us can pick the guys on the lineshooting the best scores, swap rifles and ammo with them and they will still beat us. The reason is smple - they have the things mentioned above down pat. I believe in ammo testing to a point but as the RF BR shooters can attest, the next lot of the same ammo will be different. Finding the most consistent brand in a particular rifle may be of more benefit.

JMHO

Don

As a follow up on the article I wrote published a few issues ago on the guns at EG (centerfire) in the Journal, I hope to do the same this next match at EG with the rimfires. Should be interesting.

I've found that in our game, shooting rimfires at 200yds, making decisions on ammo tested at anything less than 100yds is not too fruitful in weeding out good vs bad ammo. Sure, you can weed out the really bad, but the stuff that is close to the same group size can be hard to tell which is the better choice. Even making decisions at 100yds can mislead you as I have found some gun/ammo combination to be good at 100yds but terrible at 200yds. 

Case in point is that I'd tested some new Lapua Midas L & M at 100yds vs my Wolf Match Target (vintage five years old) in a BSA Mk III with 12x Unertl off the bench at our club. Shooting consisted of 10 groups, five shots each, all in the same day. Gun was cleaned between Lapua and Wolf and 20 shots fired into the dirt to "season" the barrel. Might not have to had to do this since I believe that both are made by Lapua.  The barrel was dry patched between each group. This old batch of Wolf has always been really consistent group wise for me. Anyway, based on this test I made the switch to Lapua Midas M because it showed better groups and no fliers where the Wolf did have an occasional flier, maybe one in each box of 50. 

Well, the first target at 200yds (non re-entry) I was lucky to keep 10 shots on our target! Since our club did not have a 200yd range at that time, I had no way of knowing this. Just for a sanity check, I shot another bull a few minutes later with the Wolf, after cleaning the gun, and I shot something in the 230's. 

Anyway, long story short, check out you ammo choice at the distance you shoot before declairing that X ammo is better than Y ammo!

MI-shooter