OK, I'm working on moulds and seaters and they will take some time, SO what are the principles of GOOD off-hand shooting?  (And what one does to practice to improve.)

I use a position where I face about 90 degrees from the target with the target to my left.

Feet shoulder-width apart, work feet into a very comfortable stance/footing.

Back arched a bit to the back to place rifle over my center of mass.  (Less arch is needed the fatter I get.)

Left arm directly under the rifle, support as close to just in front of the trigger - either with palm rest, or finger tip support or just a vee support (with NO gripping muscle action).

Right arm horizontal with the ground, slight firm pull back on the stock into the shoulder.  With BIG bore, thumb to the right side of the stock.  

I build a rythm of breething deeply and loading, shouldering and shooting.

Target alignment is by lining up sigths as rifle comes down to target to keep shoulder-mounted time to a minimum.


That's what I  do.  How to improve?  Exercises?

Is using a sling legal?

Also available from Brownells, (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links), stock number is 960-100-000.  Same price, VERY gun friendly company...and proceeds will go (in a very small way) to help pay for my single shot addiction!

David
Montezuma, IA

Here's a few helpful hints;

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Bob

I would only SLIGHTLY disagree with Bruce...

Go LIGHT on the caffeine on match day.. but if you're heavily caffiene addicted, going cold turkey on match morning is going to mess with your concentration.  Go LIGHT on the caffeine. Like half or less your "usual".


Also, Do tune our the other shooters, and don't start jacking your jaw before the string. Start getting into your own little "zone" a few minutes before "commence fire", and start visualizing perfect shots. Start paying attention to the wind... and stretch your muscles.

I don't like doubling up on hearing protection to tune out the world, however... Years ago, we had a couple premature discharges on the line in our Highpower program due to a couple shooters doing just that, and then NOT being able to hear the range commands.   


J.D. Steele is right on about your "Natural Point of Aim"... that should be first, last and foremost in ANY position shooting!  You should be able to totally relax, open your eyes, and be IN THE BLACK with your front sight. Any "muscling" of the rifle to get it pointed at your target is going to make you throw shots towards your natural point of aim.  If your rifle is pointed at the edge of the paper, you're going to start putting shots out that way!

Once you establish this natural point of aim, do NOT move your feet again until the string is done!   

Hope this helps!
Paul F.

Another question:

ASSUMING a rifle that will do MOA,  what is a GOOD and an EXCELLENT off-hand group size at 100 and 200 yards ?

Cat_Whisperer wrote on Apr 1^st, 2007 at 6:19pm:


I've been taught that you should keep your eye FOCUSED on the front sight (be it a post or an aperture), but your attention should be on sight alignment and sight picture.

Also, the best practice I've ever found for offhand is a combination of live fire at the range, a lot of dry firing at home at a spot on the wall, and if you have an accurate air rifle to practice with. The longer barrel time with the air rifle will refine your hold and follow-through.  I never could afford a decent air rifle, but when I was shooting Highpower actively, I got a lot out of dry fire practice.  25-30 shots per session to develop the same endurance I'd need in a match (20 record shots).

Paul F.

Cat_Whisperer wrote on Apr 1^st, 2007 at 6:22pm:



Who cares about the group, but the scores at 200 yds on the ASSRA/WSU/NMLRA target should be in the 220s for 10 shots to be "excellent" in my opinion.  If you can do better than that for 100 shots, you can win a big chunk of my money and a bunch of other's as well.   

Good is anything over 200.  While I can shoot a few scores in that range and even very occasionally into the rarified are of 220s, I am not yet a "good" shooter on average.  But I will be this year.   

At 50 ft using a .22, you need only look at the top 10 places in this year's WSU match to see what the good-excellent transition looks like.  You can see the scores at (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Overall, the real definition of good and excellent depends on what you want to do.  But shooting in the 220s at 200 yds or 245s at 50 ft will get  you entrance to the big boys' cave.   

Brent

Just back from the monthly match in Davenport.

Apparently I do some things different.

I re-establish a new position each shot. My body changes through a match and my position has to adapt.  Keeping my feet in one position for a long time and the blood gets squeezed out, and my feet and legs get tired.  I also have to let my innards unwind between shots.

When my rifle is in position, I check the rear sight. When alignment of the rear sight with my eye is correct, I depend on my position to maintain that alignment.  (I shoot only with a scope, so that's the rear of the scope.) 

When I am shooting well, as I bring the rifle to the target, my concentration shifts to the little white dot in the middle of the target.  The crosshairs move around in front of the target.  I am barely aware of the crosshairs, and at some time the shot goes off.  If the pattern of the crosshair movement is not what I'm used to, or centered to the right or left, or my mind starts to wander, I set the rifle down and start over for that shot.

Chris Jens

The ASSRA 200 yd target for iron sights has a 12 inch bull that extends to the 18 ring, so ten shots in the bull will usually result in a score of 200 or better.  The bull for the scoped or anysight target is 6 inches and extends to the 22 ring.  Ten shots in this bull is a dream of mine! Ha!
    The targets used for .22RF at 100 yds are scaled down for this range and offhand scores for a given shooter seem to be very close at both ranges.  The ammo for offhand .22RF shooting is pretty inexpensive and is, IMO some of the best practise.   FWIW
Regards, Joe

Cat_Whisperer wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2007 at 6:59am:


Only if you can put the group in the middle.   

Brent

Cat 2 more things 

All the books recomended are very good. I found David Tubbs High Power Rifle to be excelent. He has some very good methods for offhand shooting. Tubb may be the best living offhand shot. For sure the one with widest experence in all disiplines.

Other thing on centered up groups. Brent is right you need to keep the group centered up.  It's more like pistol shooting than rifle and bench zeros will not be the same as offhand.

I lay my fired target on the bench. It ought to have a lot of shots to make an adequate test. at least 25.  Omitting the off shots use a framing square to draw a box around the majority of holes. Height and width.  I note it in MOA. Say 3 moa high and 5 moa wide.  Then draw an X through the corners of the box.   the x should be in the X ring. If not measure it and note off center in MOA.   

Often times you will see windage drift due to conditons. Thats one thing to keep your eye on when shooting I do crank my sight left and right during a match if conditons are playing with impact. Elevation errors are more correctable before the match. If they are off note the sight setting for range/rifle/load and use it. Mine will be from 1 to 2 moa off bench settings, generaly lower offhand than when rest shooting. Less in rimfire more in centerfire as the rifle recoils more. 

Boats

There's an aspect of offhand shooting that nobody here has yet addressed, and that is talent. A friend and I shot at Old Colony for well over 20 years in a winter league offhand 200 yard match at a target with a 7" 10 ring and 13" 9 ring-the black. During that time we practiced a great deal, read a lot, and were coached by some very good shooters. Neither of us became adequate offhand shooters. My high score was a fluke 192, averages somewhere in the 180s. The better shooters could shoot averages in the 190s, and that 10 points is the difference between night and day. We also shot in the MSS matches at the German Ring Target, and other matches throughout the year. I shot tens of thousands of practice shots.
I recall Fitz returning after a ?2? year layoff and shooting in the 190s with his first target, others doing the same. 
Jim Feren is the best example of talent that I know of. He sort of appeared, shot the daylights out of everybody, and went away. I (with Rudi's help) started an article on Jim, but never finished it for some reason.
I think that it's fair to tell folks that study and practice and coaching ain't going to do it unless you have the talent, and I can testify to the frustration the untalented feel while attempting to become an offhand shooter.
On a more positive note, it appears that good offhand shooting doesn't worsen with age, and may get better. The old guys who shot good when younger seem to shoot as well as they age.
Thank God for bench rest.
joe brennan

Some have alluded to changing your sights between bench and standing.  I have to ask why?

It seems to me that if your sight picture is right, it does not matter whether you are off a bench, standing, sitting, or upside down, the rifle is pointed the same.  If you have to adjust from bench to standing, in at least one of the positions your sight picture is not right.  To me it seems better to change your position to correct the sight picture than to modify your sights to correct for a bad position.

The influence of one bad shot on your score is still much more than this either way.

Chris Jens

It's the way the rifle recoils. Even .22's shot prone with a tight sling will group different than off a bench.   

Best example I know if is shoot groups with a Goverment model 45. One holding the pistol tight with two hands centered on your body. Then another in the classic one hand sideways stance. It makes a large difference in point of impact.

Boats

Joe 

There is no doubt talent is part of sucess at the highest levels of any sport.  However with proper training and coaching any person with reasonable conditioning, reflexes, and determanation can learn to shoot a rifle offhand. In Schuetzen we have a few very talented people, Jim Feren was one (and also won a couple of Silouette National Championships) but generaly the level of competion allows the ordanary guy to compete respectably.

Offhand is not harder than casting a Fly rod, Golf or any other not too strenous sport that requires concetration.  As far as age, It's not a big factor, perhaps at the highest level but take the Golf example, lots of guys that are quite old shoot scores not far off the top younger players.  In percentage terms could be the old guys are 2-3% higher in scores. Rifles are no different I have been out shot handliy by guys much older than me. Only thing now is the number that are older is reducing.

I think one thing that happens to Shooters is lack of eary formal training  You cant' go to a rifle coach like you can a Golf Coach. If you could improvement would be much faster

We also have too much fixation on the mechanical aspects of shooting. In our sport once the rifle shoots under say, 2 moa, all effort ought to be put on physical and mental training. Not that a 1 moa rifle will not do better in the right hands it's just the effort vs gains are not reflected in scores.

Boats

I agree with what Boats said...

There IS some natural talent involved... but a lot of what is often attributed to "lack of talent" is more "ingrained bad habits" than it is lack of talent.
And "talent" more often than not manifests itself in people who work very hard to train themselves to shoot, and they practice their butts off to get that "talent".

Dry fire.
Shoot.
Visualize.
Practice perfection.

"Perfect practice makes perfect"



Paul F.

Fitz you are right about pratice, It's essential and good pratice is most important of all.

Let me say I am not the best offhand shooter, only turning in respectable scores at most matches, I do like the game have done it a long time and am a student of offhand.  I probably should not give anybody advice at my level however just to illustrate what we are saying.

Going back to my pratice target last week.  Analizing it at home focus on the off shots.  39 in the black, nothing much to be learned from them it's the 2 outside scoring rings and 9 outside the black that give me a chance to study and improve.

First lets look at the Rifle, Ammunition and ambient conditons

A well put together match rifle with good trigger and scope sight, it's capable of 1 MOA. No excueses there. I was using pratice ammo. 3 bucks a box and the same brand and velocity as my match ammo.  The thing with cheap ammo is it groups great untill you get a flyer, and the cheap stuff always gets a flyer.  Normaly I call and spot each shot so ammunation flyers are obvious. Since I was working on a particular thing this session did not spot and call. Could be one of my off shots was due to the ammo but I don't think so.  Ambient conditions would give me perhaps 1 moa of bullet drift, This borne out by my targets later. I need to focus on what I did to shoot off shots not my equipment.

2 shots outside the scoring rings have the same problem, Was just not thinking abojt the shot when pulling he triggger. How you can hold a rifle and think about whats for dinner when you pull the trigger I don't know but thats what happens.  The solution to that problem for me is use a "trigger" to lock focus before each shot. In a match I settle, lift my head and look at the target with my left eye, focus mentaly, then drop down and execute the shot. Could not use that method this session because I was training something else, and that's the reason for the 2 way off shots. I don't let this happen in a match.  

The signifigant error, 9 shots within the scoring rings but outside the black were poor trigger pulls. Not jerky or anything like that but pulling to slow or being too tenative on the trigger.  That's my siginfigant error and has been the thing I have worked on for years.  Someone else may be different but in my case seeing a good sight picture and not being able to execute the shot is the problem.  

The only cure and perhaps thats the wrong word, I have found is to work fast, get some pratice shots off quick not giving myself a chance to hesitate.   Before a match thats how I warm up. In a match will do this with dry fire which works just about as good. If it's a real problem during a match and the rules allow will go to the sighter target and shotgun some off just to mimimize the hesiatation.

The other side and problem with that method is not to waste a shot by pulling too quick. This is very common in Silouette were a miss is only counted as a miss. It's real easy to let one go with the only consequence 1 target lost.  In Schetzen with paper targets you cannnot afford to let anything go.  It's as hard not to shoot as it is to pull the trigger.  You cannot afford to break a shot thats outside the black. 

The accepted wisdom on this is to get your shot off within the first few seconds. If the sights won't settle lift your head re-group and settle again. I let my self do that 3 times maixmum. If I can't settle on the target by then will put the rifle down and begin my mount and settle sequence all over again.  However the essential thing is not to let a shot go thats outside the intended scoring area.  It's the black for me but could well be the entire paper for a beginner, or the 23 ring for a top level shooter.  As skills improve you can narrow the impact area. It's key to have one and make sure you use it as your standard for breaking shots.

Boats

When I shot M14's at Quantico, we'd shoot 200 yards standing unsupported (no sling), 300 yards sitting and 600 yards prone.  My course average was 93.  I made my money at 600 - iron sights too.

That's why I'm asking these questions about off-hand - because I know many of the principles, but it's a matter of getting it all together and good practice/coaching/reading/mind-set.

When I go to the range I practice at 100 yards standing - although NO ONE else at the range practices (for hunting) that way.  I've always wondered.

Cat

David Tubb says Highpower is lost at 600 yards won at 200 offhand.  Reason is long range conditons can bite you, if everthing works right the target is not real hard to clean. But a Shift can make you lose major points.

Offhand if you are proficent it's possable to make gains on the competition. .30 cals hardly have any drift at that range and the rifles are pretty accurate, I suppose the .223's are too. The over the course 200 yard offhand target is not so hard either.

I only shot service rifle while in the Millitary and Reserve.  Never on an offical team always a pick up anybody can shoot team at unit level.  We had so-so M1's converted to .308 either accuate or dogs depending on the bedding mostly.  With my muzzleloader background offhand was the better leg. Rapid and Prone not so good. Tubb says most of his high power pratice is offhand and I think he is right.

Boats

I have always read, and taken to heart that "Highpower matches are won in standing, and lost in slow prone".

If you're a good solid standing shooter, and just "don't screw up" in slow prone, you'll come out on top.

Also, a general truism I have observed is that you'll generally get your new classification card when your standing scores average the bottom of the class you're in NOW. (in other words, when you're shooting expert scores in offhand, you're probably gonna be getting your Master card in the mail pretty soon).

When I was shooting highpower, I practiced 80% of my time in offhand, 20% "everything else".   
It served me pretty well... 

Paul F.

Paul, Boats -

Good comments.  It's going to be fun going through this thread listing the principles and building a routine.  Haven't shot competition for at least 15 years.  Building the prototype breechseater (for the .375H&H) and will start shooting that and the .375 win when I get the right mould/sizer issues in tow.   

It's cool to toss out a few questions and get ALL KINDS of good responses!

I use trees, my knees, cross sticks, etc.  I have shot a few deer offhand but darned rare.  I shot an elk offhand once too.  35 yds.  Practice really wasn't a big issue there.   

As for Tubbs and practice, I could swear I read an article of his on the web about how he very very rarely practices.  In fact, he does a lot of "practicing" in his head, but not with his hands.   

A lot of practice might be a good idea to a point, but it had best be good practice.  There is a tacky saying to the effect that "Practice does not make perfect.  Perfect practice may make perfect".  (I think its supposed to be a catchier jingle than that though).  Be that as it may, I find some quality practice (generally short bouts) and a lot of pre and post mental analyses sure helps.  Shooting the WSU winter league really helps with my confidence as well.  Confidence is 90%, at least for me.

Brent

     I believe I read in one of my books on shooting that Jack Writer used to schedule a certain amount of time for a practice session.  If he was shooting badly he would quit well before the session was over.  If he was shooting well he would shoot beyond the scheduled time.  He wanted the good shooting to become instinctive.  He did not want to ingrain the bad shooting.
     Lanny Bassham says to never think about a bad shoot. Get it out of your mind.  If you want to think about what you did on any particular shot think about the one that was perfect and what you did to get that shot.

jfeldman wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2007 at 12:22am:


Ned Roberts, in his book The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, quotes his shooting uncle Alvaro as saying that a good rifleman should be able to keep all his shots inside an 8-inch circle at 40 rods (220 yards), offhand, with peep rear and pinhead front iron sights, if his rifle was accurate. I gather from the tone of the narrative that this level of performance was enough to make a respectable showing but not necessarily enough to win every time.

I can only dream..............
Regards, Joe

On offhand pratice

I agree 100% that pratice should be focused and re-enforce good habits not bad ones. It's probably best to end a session thats not going well. If you do however find out why the session was going wrong and try to fix it.

As far as match vs pratice.  It depends.

When I shot a lot of Smallbore Silouette 4 matches each month were avalable and each match ran two types of rifles two matches of each. I was able to shoot over a hundred matches per year. Same with Smallbore prone when I had 250 schudled matches per year in a club 2 miles from my house. No problem to shoot a Hundred of them,  Both I only shot outside of formal matches to fix something on the rifle or solve some positon problem.

Schuetzen is another story.  I only shoot  4 matches per year, 3 Outdoor Hudson matches and one indoor gallery match.  It's due to the distance and with outdoor Schuetzen 3 day format.  I have to pratice, othewise performance will be not up to my expectations. 

If you are located near an active club with a full slate of competition avalable you will be a much better shooter than working isolated. I read often about the Wyoming shooters and amount of competition they have, with very good shooters too.  It's going to be hard to beat that kind of match experence.

I should not paraphrase Tubb, again it's best to read his book, He has shot a lot of diffrent disiplines and refers often to pratice and methods.  No doubt when he was winning all the Sillouette matches match shooting was all he did. When on a college team pratice was his primary shooting.

Boats

AFAIK, in ASSRA competition, 
a) No
b) No

You are correct that palm rests are allowed and may be of virtually any conventional configuration, and both adjustable and fixed designs are allowed.

At E-G and some other venues, there are special matches, usually for the over-40 cal. crowd, where cross sticks are used.  I am not aware of ANY use of slings in any ASSRA sanctioned matches, but I don't have my rule book handy.

On a related but slightly different note, it is not uncommon for OH shooters to utilize a rifle rest, as seen in other disciplines, to rest the rifle WHILE the shooter is standing and preparing for a shot.  The rifle is then lifted off the rest only at the last moment as the shooter assumes his actual firing position.  This lift may be quite minimal, but the rifle and the shooter's hand (an all other parts) must be clear of the support.  I have made a pipe-clamp device that holds my spotting scope, this rest and even a bar for my powder measure so that I can clamp one thing to the bench top and get all of those jobs accomplished at once.

HTH, Froggie

I'll work on it, Flatlander.  Only problem, it's cold in the foothills of VA as well! 

The general idea, which is used by MANY shooters and has been for a long time, is to buy one of those clamp sets that uses a piece of black iron pipe.  One part threads onto the end of the pipe, the other can be slid up and down to approximate position, then there is a crank to do your final tightening...every tool seller from "Horrible Freight" to "Rears and Sawbuck" has about the same unit.   

The pipe is clamped to the table with about 3 or more feet sticking up above the table, then whatever you need to support is attached to this upright pipe.  I took a T-fitting and reamed out the threads so it would slide on the pipe, then cut extra long threads on a short section to screw into the short leg of the T and tighten against the upright.  Singleshot turned me on to the idea of using some insulating foam around the pipe to protect the rifle finish.  My scope mount is a flat bar of aluminum about 4" long with a hole to slide on the pipe (secured in place with a set screw) and another hole for an old Freeland's scope stand mounting piece. The powder measure clamps to or goes through a similar plate located down close to the surface of the table where it's convenient.  All of this is instantly adjustable for different benches at different ranges.  Lots of folks use wood instead of aluminum or other variations on the theme...it comes down to whatever you have available that will work for you!   

I'll try to get some pix and post them when Global Warming reaches Central VA!  Our weatherman doesn't know about it yet!! 

Froggie

Jim, the box mine came in says "pipe clamp," and I've always considered the term "bar clamp" limited to those flat bar things that do the same thing using the bar that comes with the clamping mechanism rather than fitting on a piece of black iron pipe that the customer supplies.  As you know however, I'm a Biologist by trade, so if my technical terminology is confused, just blame it on my raisin'! 

BTW, for those with deeper pockets than a retired Biology teacher, Sinclair makes a Jim Dandy unit with solid steel rods, some sort of synthetic clamp plates, etc, etc.  I saw one being used by (I believe) el Presidente for the last season or two and it looks mighty spiffy.  Now where did I put that hammer and my piggy bank...   

Froggie

PS  I'm gathering up the parts of my XXXX clamp unit and will try to get pix posted by Mon or Tues.  GF

Quote:


Sir, my copy of Robert's The Breech-Loading Single Shot Rifle contains no such statement on page 44, the contents of which deal with the Maynard rifle and have some small reference to the groups obtained by particular shooters at a mere 200 yards. I refer you to the source I cited earlier, Roberts' The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, the Stackpole NRA edition, page 121. He states an 8" circle with iron sights offhand, 4" with iron sights and a rest, and 2 1/2" with a scope and a rest, all at 40 rods which is a full 220 yards.

Like the man said earlier in another thread, don't make me tell you again. Your intentions were undoubtedly good but your facts were a little weak sorry.
Good luck, Joe

I don't know about the draw-tube scope, but the group sizes quoted in Roberts' book seem eminently doable to me. I personally have never been even an adequate offhand shooter but can usually match or beat the 'with rest' group sizes he mentioned. I would expect that's true of most of us on this board.

JoeB, you gotta remember that most folks can't shoot nearly as well in a shoulder-to-shoulder match as they can in practice, so the match group sizes are almost always larger. Also, the precise definition and abilities of "real" vs "rare" riflemen may have undergone some changes over the years (VBG).
Cheers, Joe

Another pair of questions.

Am I right in my assumption that heavier up front is better than ballanced around the action AND that holding it close to the action is better than out front on the forend?

Also, is there a weight of the rifle (6-8-10-12 pounds) where off-hand shooting generally becomes futile?  I.e.: do the folks that shoot very well use lighter or heavier rifles?

My opinion is a bit different from Brent's.  There's a lot of room for personal preference in offhand.

My rifle and scope (about 13 lbs) are balanced very close to the palm rest which is right under the action for my rifle.  I think the relation of the palm rest (or where you hold the rifle) to the center of mass would be more important than mass related to the action.  With this set up I get all of the weight above my left arm and through bones.  My right wing only has to gently steady and align the rifle, and it keeps to a minimum any pressure from the hook of the butt-plate on the pulse point under your right arm (for a right handed shooter).  My thought is to minimize what the right arm is doing because any thing the right arm does interferes with isolating the action of the trigger finger.  Keeping the weight balanced above the left arm minimizes what the right arm has to do.

It might be different If I shot something larger than a 22, but with the set-up I have it works for me.

Chris Jens

I add a little weight by leaving the pope muzzle sled that I use for bench, on the barrel while shooting offhand.   

Available from Buffalo Arms
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I have another much nicer one that will be going on my Borchardt as soon as it is done. 

Brent