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Normal Topic Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements (Read 4541 times)
KenKauffman
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Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements
Mar 14th, 2007 at 4:36pm
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   When shooting the .45-90 Win. Express with the comparativly "small" 300 - 325 grain bullet, Winchester most often used a "twist" of 32:1 on their Model 1886 with a 26" barrel.
   If one wished to shoot this SAME round with a 30" barrel, should one expect the "twist" requirement to be the same or less?  Let us say 28:1?
   When shooting the .45-70 with a bullet in the 400 grain range, 26" barrel, Winchester used a twist which was 20:1 or less.
   Thank you for your thoughts, etc.
  
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singelshotman
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Re: Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements
Reply #1 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 4:55pm
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Generally used is the "Greenhill" theory of twist, the twist required is the length of bullet divided by 150, times the bullets diameter(in inches).This is most accurate around 1500 fps or less, an it was developed during black powder cartridge days. The length of the barrel has nothing to do with the twist required, except perhaps in pistols. The rule is good is BPCR's of all types, however.
  
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FITZ
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Re: Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements
Reply #2 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 5:49pm
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Ken, I would suggest you put any thought of recreating the Express line of calibers out of your mind. They were a complete disaster for Winchester. The thought was a light weight bullet with a heavy charge of Black Powder would have a very flat trajectory and carry a long distance. In fact they were notoriously poor shooters, accuracy wise. And tended to not carry well for any significant distance. The old tried and true 45-70 with a 20" twist will shoot all kinds of different weight bullets from the 325 gr Gould Hollow point all the way up to 535 Gr Postell bullets with stunning accuracy with a little load development. This was such a disaster for Winchester that there is not even a record of who dreamed it up and put it into  the Lineup. As to the barrel length making a difference in the twist requirements? That is also a wrong direction. A twist that is good for a 400 gr bullet will be the correct twist wether the barrel is 22" long or 34" long. I own 45-70s in both conditions and they both shoot the same wide range of bullets excellently. Now a precision benchrest shooter might find some small differences and make an argument about this. But I figure by the time he has shot enough heavy loaded 45-70 ammo from bench to make a case it will be a moot point. he won't want to argue anymore anyhow. HTH, Regards, FITZ. Smiley
  

FITZ
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements
Reply #3 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 3:47am
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FWIW,
If you read the contemporary literature, the Express rifles were deemed good out to 150-200 yds, but the user had to accept a certain loss of accuracy.  The champions of the express rifles were the Brits, pushing .45 slugs at 1800+ fps with big powder loads to get a good point blank range - but with significant trade-offs.   
I if recall, J.H. Walsh stated that a very good express rifle with perfect barrel (single shot) was considered top-notch if it could put its shots into a 4" circle at 100 - not something that would be acceptable for me...
FWIW, I am of the opinion that overstabilization is most certainly no sin - but understabilization is.
  
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DoubleD
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Re: Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements
Reply #4 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 12:27pm
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Quote:
Late 19th century and turn of the century hunters were not as afflicted with M.O.A. accuracy requirements from their hunting rifles yet slew big game in numbers we can only dream about.


Yes those good old boys wrote about the game they killed but only seldom do they talk about about all the game they wounded or just plain missed with  4MOA 50 yard guns.
  

Douglas, Ret.
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FITZ
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Re: Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements
Reply #5 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 8:10pm
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Don, yes the early hunters were wildly succesfull. And we too could be if we had the game they had to shoot at. Just consider what you could do to a herd of thousands of Buffalo with a 300 magnum from 400 yds on a herd that would not even get excited when they were shot at. In Africa the large big game was used to being the top of the chain and instead of running would either stand their ground while they were chopped down or come in closer to be killed easier. The English big caliber Express rifles were succesful because they knew to include big heavy bullets with the big heavy charges of Black Powder and also knew something about  Twist rate. The Sharps Company had a line of Express calibers also but in their case they too used correct twist and just made the shell longer to accomodate bigger charges of Powder. Winchester for some reason forgot or ignored this wisdom of the time and came out with their own line that was a disaster. I had a 38-90 Express rifle and a freind with more experience than I warned me that they did not stabilise very well. First three shots at 50 yds all went thru the paper flat sideways. End of story. made a 32-40 out of it. still have it today 37 years later. Have no idea what I did with that pristene full octagon barrel but it is not in my stable. Well enough of my raving. Regards, FITZ. Smiley
  

FITZ
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Paul_F.
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Re: Rifling Twist Ratio Requirements
Reply #6 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 11:34am
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DoubleD wrote on Mar 15th, 2007 at 12:27pm:

Yes those good old boys wrote about the game they killed but only seldom do they talk about about all the game they wounded or just plain missed with  4MOA 50 yard guns.


FYI;  4MOA at 50 yards is 2".
IMHO, anyone who can't hit game at 50 yards in a vitals area 6" around (deer-ish size game) with a 2" shooter at 50 yards should have their rifle taken away and get spanked with it until they get their buns out to the range and PRACTICE SHOOTING.

Not that I have a strong opinion on that or anything Cheesy

Paul F.
  
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