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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ??? &nb (Read 7276 times)
Paul_F.
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Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ??? &nb
Nov 14th, 2006 at 12:28pm
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Found a site, which I can't get to from work to link to because of a silly internet filter... that has a number of Swedish Rolling Blocks in "12.17x42RF"  I assume that means "rimfire".   
I was unable to find any cartridge references at home last night (but I haven't exhausted my references yet).

The prices (around $500-ish) and conditions have me interested...
But I have no idea if there is ANY practical way to convert the block to centerfire (the least daunting part, to me at least) and to form some centerfire brass from something reasonable (the far more daunting part of the equation from my perspective).

Is there some way to get one of these old 'Rollers shooting WITHOUT rebarreling one?  I have a certain sick fascination with finding the really weird ones cheap, and spending an inordinate amount of time and money making 'em shoot. This is a recent affliction, and I'm hoping I come to my senses before too long.. Cheesy

Anyone know anything about making a 12.17x42RF shoot centerfire?
Thanks in advance!
Paul F.
  
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13Echo
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #1 - Nov 14th, 2006 at 6:48pm
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There is a center fire version of the cartridge, the 12.17x44.  It is the equivalent of a .50-70.  The 12.17x42 rimfire cartridge was the military version and the centerfire was civilian.  Why the centerfire version has a longer case nobody seems to know.  Both were fired in the same chamber.  Conversion of the rifle involved a new, centerfire block. Most rifles in centerfire will be military rifles that have been factory "sporterized".  Brass is made by expanding, fireforming and trimming .348 Win brass.  The cases can then be reloaded with .50-70 dies and will use the same bullets and load information.

Jerry Liles
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #2 - Nov 14th, 2006 at 8:48pm
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Hate to burst any bubbles, but the .50-70 dies wont work with the 12.17x44 very well. I had this chambering in a Swede Roller and heard the same thing, but it just wont work. Resizing works the brass too much, and the shellholder is different. Best to get the correct dies and brass from Buffalo Arms.
The rimfire breechblock can be converted to CF, so that will work.
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #3 - Nov 15th, 2006 at 10:02am
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Paul,
I picked up a Swede sporting roller in 12.7X44R a couple of years ago and it has been sitting in the corner waiting for me to get moving on it. I purchsed some Bertram brass from Midway and heard that 50-70 dies would work.  I bought a set but my experience is the same as Marlinguy's.  They didn't size the brass at all so I returned them.  I did slug the bore and it miced (sp?) .478" - .508".  Very deep lands and grooves.  The slug came out looking hexagonal.  Mine is pretty rough and I have restocked it but still working on a forearm.  It also needs the sliding extractor and the breechblock bushed.  As soon as I get these highwall projects finished.....  Try this website which talks about "Pettson's Place".  This site and Pettsons' should give you a lot of help on making your decision.  The Pettson site must be down now but it is a wealth of information on Swedish and Danish rollers.  Good luck! (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
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13Echo
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #4 - Nov 15th, 2006 at 11:59am
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Now I'm confused.  The Pettson site was my information source about using 50-70 dies and bullets.  Marlinguys experience was they excessively sized the cases and Paul found they didn't size the brass at all?  Huh  Something's rotten in Denmark (Sweden - Norway?)  As for the shell holder, obviously you would need one for the .348, the source of the brass, rather than one for the .50-70.

Jerry Liles
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #5 - Nov 15th, 2006 at 12:09pm
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Thanks for all the info!

I found another page that indicates that the .50-70 cartridges will NOT fit the chamber, but goes on to say that you can size your brass with .50-70 DIES just fine.. which does not make a lot of sense...    (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

It SOUNDS like if a guy happens to get a "tight" set of .50-70 dies, and a "loose" chamber, it would work... but if you get a nice tight chamber and a "loose" set of dies, it won't.   
I think I'd be inclinded to buy the $72 set of PROPER dies from CH4D or Buffalo Arms...

Good to know that this is something that HAS been done before, though!
Depending on the state of my next couple paychecks, I might pick on of these up!

I can't give you a direct link, but the outfit that has 'em is Collectors Firearms, Simpson.  If you google for that, you'll turn 'em up.   They also have many 8x56R rifles... but I'm less interested in those than I am the more oddball 12.17x42R ones... (told you, it's a sickness!).

Paul F.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #6 - Nov 15th, 2006 at 8:56pm
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.50-70 brass wouldn't even come close to fitting in my chamber! When I ran one into the chamber after sizing, it still was too large for the chamber. 
I guess I didn't say this right the first time. If the brass is already sized to fit the chamber, it will rattle around inside the dies. If you use .50-70 brass, it's way to large to even chamber in the 12.7 Swede.
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #7 - Nov 15th, 2006 at 10:00pm
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When I tried the Lyman 50-70 dies, I was using the Bertram brass, and they were a snug fit in the die but no sizing at all.   I bought the Bertram because they were on sale at Midway at the time.  They are a tight fit in my rifle's chamber and should be sized a little more.  I tried a .348 empty in my chamber and the rim was quite small.  The Bertram rim is a nice fit though an odd two stepped rim.  The rim looks like the one in the middle marked RWS that's shown on the Dutchman's site.  That's all I can say at this time until I get a chance to follow through with this project more.  I have given thought of relineing to 45-70 and eliminate these problems. Bob
  
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Gregdownunder
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #8 - Feb 13th, 2007 at 4:32am
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Sorry, I am a little late on this one.

I have looked closely at the specs for both 12.17 and 50-70 brass.
The base (not the rim) of 50 70 brass is .557 while the 12.7 is .545.
The 50-70 tapers slightly to .532 at the neck as opposed to a fairly straight .543 for the 12mm.
So with a 12 thou larger base I would not expect a 50 cal case to fit a 12mm chamber.
I quickly discovered however if you take 10 thou off the RIM (which IS too large)  50 cal brass  will fit quite nicely into the 12mm chamber,or at least they have on the dozen or so rifles I know of over here.
Obviously the chambers are fairly generous on the Swedes,and the starline brass may be a tad smaller than the specs.
All the information I have read says this is not possible,but unless I am missing something then I see no reason not to use 50-70 brass in the Swedes.
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #9 - Feb 13th, 2007 at 4:01pm
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Thanks for the reply!

I did end up with one of the Swede Rollers in 12.17x44..

My chamber is a bit "big" at the base, and .50-70 APPEARS that it may work if I can get the 12.17 die to do a few thou of "base sizing".
I'm asking around locally for a few pieces of .50-70 to test before I lay out the cash for new Starline brass.

The dies are backordered too... so I'm in no rush Smiley

Quite a nice rifle! I'm looking forward to shooting it!

Paul F.
  
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Gundoc
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #10 - Feb 15th, 2007 at 11:32am
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A few years ago I talked to the dealer in Arizona who was selling the Swede Rollers,  he said a 50-70 reamer would clean up the 12.17 chambers and would sell them original or reamed to 50-70.  I have not worked on one myself.

Gundoc
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #11 - Feb 15th, 2007 at 12:24pm
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Rechamber to a cartridge I can buy off the shelf? Where's the fun in THAT? Cheesy

Actually, I was thinking about doing that.... but decided to lay out the extra cash on the 12.17 dies, and making the brass isn't that hard (he says, not having done it yet...).

AND I get to be the only kid on my block with one... several folks have .50-70's..

Paul F.
  
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40-65tom
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Re: Possibilities for a Swede RB in 12.17x42RF ???
Reply #12 - Feb 15th, 2007 at 4:12pm
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Howdy
Having had a few of these 12.17 rifles, I have basically done almost all of the above. The 348 brass does work, although the rims were a little small, but worked just fine. Turning the rims on the 50-70 worked also, but they would not go in one rifle. After a while you have to figure the answer is it depends, on the particular rifle. I did have a 50-70 reamer turned in one to cure a bad chamber and open up the rim recess. Worked very well, except for one small problem. The pilot for the bore ended up being smaller than the front of the reamer. We didn't realize this till later, and cut a step in the rifling. Shot great, but leaded at the step something fierce. A coned throater cured that, still have this rifle and it still shoots great.

Tom
  
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