Tony,
  I was lucky enough to rescue Highwall #1XX from a varmit conversion back 20 yrs ago. It is a thick side octagon top.
cheers,
-lige

I have a thickside Hiwall in 40-70 Ballard made in 1893.  Bert Hartman mentioned that he has seen thickside Hiwalls from serial # 50 to serial # 131XXX.  He said most were early but they show up at random later, almost all in large calibers.

max

I have owned both thick-side and thin-side octagon-top high walls, and both were very early. The thickside had the cross-pin FP retainer. IMO the thin-side is better-looking & it's my impression that it's rarer also.
Regards, Joe

Fitz,
I forgot to mention that #909 also has a lo wall size small shank barrel. According to the Cody museum it was originally barreled in 32 WCF.
Tony

Hello all,

A very interesting topic, and one that I have studied & researched to some degree.

To clarify some of the impressions and assumptions made by several of the previous respondents, the following statistical information was take directly from by research database:

There are numerous variations of the high-wall frame, but I will simplify it into four (4) basic styles; (the number after the first three frame types is the total number of each that I have personally confirmed).

1. Thick-side frame w/octagon receiver ring (15), all serial numbers are below 5800 except (1) rifle 74492.

2. Thick-side frame w/round receiver ring (41), one of which is also a Takedown. Serial numbers run from 142 - 131043.

3. Thin-side frame w/octagon receiver ring (24), all serial numbers are below 3300 except (1) rifle 92995.

4. Thin-side frame w/round receiver ring (50K+)

It appears that you fellows either own or know of several specimens that I have not yet recorded. For those that would like to help with my continuing research and/or participate in a survey, please contact me at Win1885@msn.com.

Regards,
Bert Hartman

Hello Dave,

I agree... the serial number on the lower tang was factory restamped, and it was done sometime after 1910. Winchester made the switch from the italic style serial number to the block style precisely at serial number 110,000.

I also agree with you in that J.C. is not correct in his assertion that the numeral stamped on the barrel right next to the frame is the barrel size. The barrel size number is almost always stamped on the bottom of the barrel just forward of the forestock tip (some very early rifles were not marked), and the size number stamp is also frequently (approx. 50%) found under the forestock stamped between the flat-spring dovetail and the forestock tenon slot. It is my belief, that the number stamped next to the frame designates the shanks size (e.g. a "3" designates a .935" shank, and a "1" designates a .825" shank). I have not been able to conclusively proove it yet though. I am very interested in any information that you can get off of those old barrels.

I would also like to get all of the original participants in this topic string to post any comments or information that they may have.

Bert

Hmmmm.... 

The only other plausible theory would be that it is an inspection or assemblers stamp mark. I have a fair number of high-walls with a No. 3 barrel that have the "3" stamped next to the punch mark at the frame juncture.

Bert

FITZ wrote on Jan 6^th, 2007 at 3:56pm:


Hello Fitz,

Thank you very much for the additional serial numbers. You may have noticed that I already have #131043 in my records (I saw it in James D. Julia's October 2000 auction). If you you not mind, please contact me at Win1885@msn.com as I would like to send you a survey form for #800 and #818.

Regards,
Bert

Recoil Rob,

     I once owned a similar early (but about a year or so later) .32-20 high-wall with a #1 full octagon barrel in excellent unaltered condition.  For the first couple of years before the low-walls hit the market, pistol class chamberings were frequently built with #1 or #2 profile barrels on high-wall frames with the small barrel shank.  As with many of my gun trades, I let it get away and wish I had it back.   

     Looking at yours specifically, It appears to be lacking the mainspring and the mainspring base and screw that go into that dovetail under the fore end.  In addition, it appears that the fly and its retaining pin are missing from their places in the back of the hammer, and I don't see the adjusting screw that goes into the flat behind the trigger.  I would hazard a guess that at one time the rifle wore a tang sight of some sort, hence the too-long rear tang screw.  Finally, it appears that the fore end wood may be replaced or altered...in the picture at least, the front end looks a little strange. 

     All of that being said, this rifle is what a lot of us look for, a good candidate to build on without worrying about messing up an honest old complete piece.  The small shank will mean that original barrels in #1 and #2 round and octagon will be available, perhaps from a low wall that would use that same shank.  You MIGHT get lucky and find a fore end to match the barrel you choose and the existing butt stock if you are sufficiently patient.  The missing parts I mentioned (if indeed they are not there) are all available new from Ballard Rifle Co. as repros (very high quality and fit!) and most originals show up from time to time on this board or on eBay.  Looks like you have a great project rifle there! 

Best Wishes,
Green Frog

PS  Winchester occasionally used the small shank barrels for calibers like .32-40 and .38-55, so you don't have to feel limited to pistol class calibers if you decide to rebarrel, but nice .32-20 octagon bbls in #1 or #2 profile show up often, some with good bores, some needing lining.  I would look long and hard at those if that rifle were in my shop.   

A .38-72 is as long as a .45-2.6 and it looks even longer because it's a bit skinnier.  I've got one in a #2 Winchester highwall barrel (large shank).  It's a fun gun and doesn't beat you up quite so bad.  Some of those other big boomers will punch you pretty hard using a lightweight barrel like that.

That extra hole isn't extra.  It's for the front sight base screw.  The next one back is for the knockoff spring and then the last one is the combination stock bolt/sight base screw.

Brent

Rob:

And here I thought all our new members just wanted to talk about disgusting, demeaning things like Martha's personal habits or Pan Lubing or the like.

I am with the wise and learned Mr. Steele on this one. The small shank simply won't do for the cartridge you have in mind. The receiver ring could be opened up for a large shank barrel but that has to be done correctly, and to do so would be an expensive proposition.

The action appears to be in excellent conditon and an excellent candidate for restoration. I second Mr. Steele's recommendation that you trade it off for a large shank action or pick a more suitable chambering. There were "panatella" catridges that would fit comfortably in that action. The Stevens .25-21 and .25-25 come to mind, as well as the .28-30 Stevens.

A wedding band transition, oh my!


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Glenn

Quote:


Hello Rob, 

Yes, I am collecting data on the less common frame types (like your rifle). What I would like to know is the complete serial number (you can send it to me in a Private Message or email at Win1885@msn.com if you prefer).

Bert

Rob, a small shank is a small shank.  A #2 is a #2.  They are not synonymous.   

You could also have a large shank #2.  I have a couple of them.  If that's what you had, you would be better off for a big gun.   

Brent

I dunno.   Might be.  Might depend on the .38.  They ain't all equal.  That's something that you could ask JD Steele or Campbell.  They know way more than me about that.

Brent

Here's another thought Rob. Have all the wrench marks welded up on the original barrel. Then have it relined or rebored to the larger caliber you can safely handle. Since the bore is already gone, the welding wont hurt, and if it's rust blued the welds wont show a difference in metallurgy either. That way it would be all original looking, and save a bit of money too.
There's a member here that can weld up those defects and reline it reasonably!

Rob,

     Unfortunately the Cartridges of the World varies pretty widely in whether and which cartridges have detailed drawings, but for each chapter there is a table that has a more-or-less complete set of cartridge and case dimensions...expecially base and neck diameter, case and overall length, etc.  This may help. 

     As this part of the thread has rolled out, I was beginning to think along the same lines as my far Southern buddy, JD Steele that a case based on the .30 Krag/.303 Brit pattern and as long as you want or could find would make a nice "brass panatella" for you.    A CASE you might look at is the .444 Marlin.  This is availble off-the-shelf and has that case size, but is probably a bit shorter than you would like to see.  I would feel good about this in a high-wall, but that is JMHO, of course. 

     One nice thing about working with that high-wall, just about any cartridge of the time was available in it at one time or another, so if it will go in the barrel you use (keeping to the small shank dimension) it will be "right" for that rifle. 

     As for further harming the collector value of the original barrel, if it's messed up already, it's messed up.  Campbell's book showed some salvage techniques for peening metal back into place, and of course there is always the welding possibility, and if you wish to "restore" the rifle, that possibility is there.  BTW, dod we ever establish exactly which profile this barrel actually has?

Froggie

Quote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  May I suggest to you that you look at Ken Howell"s Book "designing and forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES".

Cool.  Pilkingtons eh?   

I'll have to try it.  Not against something different.  I too almost never use a rust box.  Just no need and sometimes it can go too fast.  Especially since I'm never around for an entire day anyway.  Just treat it once in the morning, once at night.  With two cycles a day, I'm done in a week.

I'm having a devil of a time getting a finish on my Krieger barrel.  They must have made them out of carbide or somthing.  I can't scratch the beast.  Oh well.  It's just my elbow afterall...

Thanks!
Brent

"As a matter of fact it was the last straw that made me decide to learn to blue myself. "
 
Now that you have learned to blue yourself, does that make you a...


GUNSMURF??          

The Green One

This stuff even makes it fun to do. If you ever saw the contraptions, the mess, the trouble I used to go through, you'd laugh to see how much better this MARK LEE stuff is. P.S. Brent: Brownell's has "dakind".

Just some more info about my gun. The barrel size isn't marked ahead of the forend. The (round) barrel is 28" long and measures 0.885 just ahead of the shank and 0.735 at the muzzle. Closest in size to a No.1 I guess. The only mark is the VP, violent proof.

Also, someone questioned the originality of the forend, here's a picture. It has the ebony insert, schnable and is 10-1/8" long.

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Thanks Froggie, I'm seriously considering leaving it with the original barrel, brand new barrel would look out of place on that gun. I took a closer look at the bore, all the rifling is there, the lands look OK  but there is roughness in the grooves. Might shoot, worth a try.

Quote:


Plan B.

I have the escutcheon Bert, the entire gun is disassembled. Will put reassembly next on the project list, but that may be a while.

I know that Ballard Rifle Co. makes parts for Highwalls so I'm thinking perhaps I'll send it to them for reassembly, they'll have whatever is needed to complete the gun. 

Would you recommmend them for this type of work or perhaps someone else?


Thanks, Rob

I had them work on a "modified", "improved" action and they did very very well.  This was probably 5 yrs ago or so and BRC keeps changing hands (and getting a lot more expensive) so I can't really say if this recommendation is still valid, but I was very happy with the quality of the work.  And then they sent me a bill that was a little out of line with the previous estimate.  Then on another "improved" Ballard block they did an admirable job but again the bill was way out of line with what they quoted me before hand (but after they had inspected the pieces).

In both instances, we agreed to the pre-work prices and I could not have been happier with the quality.  So, I would say, yup a good place, just have them call and talk to you about what needs to be done and what it will cost BEFORE they dig in.  Keep track and I'm sure everything will be fine.

Like I said this is also somewhat dated info.

Brent

Quote:


Are you absolutely sure about that? I have read in numerous places that it is "Violent Proof".

Bert

Quote:


I got my info from p.93 of Campbells book, VP, Violent Proof.

I will also refer you to THE WINCHESTER MODEL 94, THE FIRST 100 YEARS  by Robert Renneberg, p. 141 discussing lower barrel markings, top illustration. "Clearly seen are the ... violent proofmark (VP in oval)...".


Thanks for the advice about BRC. I just want the gun cleaned and reassembled but I'm thinking I can probably do that myself (sounds like I could get some help here if I get stuck). I did pull the barrel (now, I'm not the one that used the pipe wrench, I have the right setup) but I do have an indexing mark so headspace shouldn't be a problem. The barrel spins on by hand to within about 10˚ of the mark. 

Will need some parts but I can get them from BRC. Not sure if the SST works but I'll give it a try.

Rob

Boy, I can agree with those comments on the SST.  Mine was a bear to deal with but with a lot of help from the languishing JDS, it is now as reliable as they come.   

JDS, I'm afraid, will not be back too soon. The powers that be seem to have seen to that.  A real sorry state of affairs in my opinion.

Brent

The latter apparently.
Brent

Yeah, except that this is not the first time Joe's been tossed off of this place for speaking his mind (and pretty mildly in my opinion).

Brent

Yes, much to the dismay of some who shall remain nameless, I have indeed returned. At first I thought it was my sparkling wit and incisive repartee that got me banned, but it was merely the anti-spam efforts gone somewhat awry.

Josh has once again come through with a solution and I'm now a happy boy. Thanks much, Josh!

VP: I've always heard that it was "Verified Proof" but that's just hearsay. I do know for a fact that almost every collector book has its errors and I've found several in the various Winchester and Colt books, so I tend to take their info with a grain of salt unless it agrees with logic or personal observation and experience. "Violent Proof" has never sounded very professional to my ear.

The Win SST is a complicated little devil with many inter-related dimensions and actions. Some of the interactions can be easily adjusted but others are a problem. It appears simple at first glance but it certainly is not.

I plan a future article for the Journal about the Win SST, if DWS will ever publish my long-ago-submitted quarter-rib article!
Regards, Joe

"An expert is a guy with a briefcase more than 30 miles from home."   

I'm sure that Joe will agree that putting in the missing parts is the first step, and it MAY take care of your problem, but a little tweaking of the knock-off spring and the sear spring, as well as some selective polishing of engaging and friction-generating surfaces may be needed as well.  Don't forget that the fly must be present in the hammer and swinging freely so the sear clears the half cock notch.   The proper adjustment of the screw coming down behind the trigger shoe is the final step. 

The bumble bee doesn't know it's impossible for him to fly, so he does...that sort of sums up some of my gunsmithing!   

Froggie

Green_Frog wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:51pm:


The fly is one of my missing parts and it doesn't show in any of my diagrams. I see that there were two types of flys, the early one (which I imagine my early gun would have used) doesn't allow half cock. Can I use either type of fly or should I keep to the original style?


Thanks, Rob

Yeesh, frustrating just to read.


So who do I send it to that has a handle on this stuff.


Thanks, Rob

I have had two single sets operated on - once not so well.   

I sent that trigger to Ballard Rifle and with new parts, it came back perfect.  So I highly recommend their work if not their billing.

The other trigger was operated by that same board regular.  He is known to be a sorcerer of Winchesters and can make them do his bidding with a single incantation and some newt eyes....   I don't know how he does it but in the end, he gets them working perfectly.

Brent

Bob, the entire action and occasionally also the buttstock are needed for the best job. The reason is twofold: first, although all wall parts were made 'to gauge', the gauge was pretty sloppy and there's ~ a 0.002-0.003" variation (plus-or-minus) in most parts dimensions. Second, often the act of tightening the tang screw will alter the geometry of the tang and trigger enough to make the parts not work properly. Also, any subsequent heat-treatment such as case-coloring will often change the dimensions and relationships slightly.

If you need more, I'll be happy to give an opinion any time. Or if you need actual physical assistance, I'm always open to bribery! (VBG) Don't know nuthin' 'bout no newt eyes though, Brent's the Biology expert here.
Good luck, Joe

Quote:


Thanks I already had 114922 in my database, but 124371 is a new serial number.  Are you absolutely sure that the lower tang is original to the frame (considering that it has been modified, it may not be original). The vast number of Model 1885s in that serial range were Winder Muskets (the low-wall variety), and they are identical in size to a standard high-wall lower tang.

Bert

Bert. At some point will you publish a list of these serial numbers and related data that you have assembled? Would be quite interesting. Thanks.  4227   

Several thick wall rifles and actions for sale September 8-10 auction at Rock Island, from Jim Drummond's collection.  Catalog gives serial numbers.