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Slick4k
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What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Aug 24th, 2006 at 6:35pm
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   Ok I know this is a loaded question, but, and maybe I asked it before but I'm still trying to figger it out. ( Ok I'm getting old and thick headed). Now I understand if I had a 32-40 or 22 rf it would be correct. Same for a 38-55, 40-70, 25-20, plus others of the old school. 
   Then there's the new(to me) crop of 32s and 25s and 22s and  others I never heard of I 'm sure. 
So what the limiting factor? The plain based cast bullet, or the powders that keep from leading the bore. Is a 22-250 ok, or a 30-06? Or a 218 Bee or a 270 Ren? I know a 30-30 would be ok, but a 22/30-30 Improved? Or is it just what you want to shoot and try your best in your single shot rifle?
Excuse my ignorance and thanks for your replies.
  Slick4k
  
  
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singelshotman
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #1 - Aug 24th, 2006 at 7:09pm
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A 30-30 would be very accurate, i understand it has been Europe as such, however since Schuetzen has to be shot with plain -base lead bullets most of these 30--06,22-250, .218 Bee class are completly out as they would not shoot for shit with lead bullets. Casting really good lead bullets is very hard under .25 caliber,  my father once said don't cast under .30 caliber, it's too hard to do unless all you want to is plink.
  
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4227
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #2 - Aug 24th, 2006 at 7:54pm
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In the Black Powder Schuetzen game it was found after several different trials, that the optium caliber was .38 (.380+) We tried .36 caliber, .32 caliber. The main drawback was the difficulity with fouling with powder residue. The smaller we went the more critical every part became. With modern powders the traditional powder pretty much was 4227. Many have tried ball powders and other variants with some success. Wayne Schwartz setteled on a shortened .30-30 case named the .30 Schwartz and has done quite well with it. I don't recall his load but I beleve he was using a ball powder. I understand that Doc. Brewer and others also use that. It has been my expierence that the farther away you get from the norm (.32-40) the more dificulity you will incounter. Sure, there are always exceptions to the rule and that is part of the fun of this sport. Go with what you like and have fun. Again, within reason. I remember at Coor's many years ago someone had a schuetzen rifle chambered to .50 BMG. Mr. Miller,  I think it was. It was for demonstration only and he didn't shoot it much, but it sure was interesting.  The "old timers" have done most of the experminting but it's still fun to try different ideas. Good Luck.  4227
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #3 - Aug 24th, 2006 at 9:04pm
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With today's wide selection of powders and the highly developed barrels the major limiting factor is probably the selection of bullets-----if you are including benchrest as well as offhand shooting and allowing for modern optics.    Wind deflection on outdoor ranges may give a bit of an edge to heavier bullets in a given match,  but we have had 250-10x schoyen targets shot at EG with 38-55s 32-40s 32 Dell/Millers, and Wayne Vietz did it at the Summer shoot with a .25 cal. along with Jim Borton and Jeff Schultz, and the conditions were far from ideal that weekend. 
Theoretically there should be no reason a 22 cal cannot be made to perform in our type shooting; provided you could get good cast or swedged bullets and would be willing to put the development work into it.  Many of the old varmint cartridges would be way overcapacity for the kind of loads we'd be using with cast bullets.
  

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MarcO
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #4 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 2:21am
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The 50 BMG shot at the old Coors match was made by a very talented engineer at Coors by the name of Connie Grims.  He built the thing from scratch as he has all of the other schuetzen rifles he owns.  This thing was a novelty item for sure, but it was made on a scaled up Farquaharson. 

Connie has built a lot of real neat equipment in his home shop, not the least of which is a working, firing Gatling gun in 45-70.  

I just talked to him last week and he is stil building stuff.  He is now 83 or 84 years old.
  
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DonH
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #5 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 6:17am
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"Is a 22-250 ok, or a 30-06? Or a 218 Bee or a 270 Ren? I know a 30-30 would be ok, but a 22/30-30 Improved?"

I believe almost any cartridge can be made to work but moving very far outside the mainstream (rimmed .32, .38) means your pretty much on your own as to developoment. The extreme end of this would be the big case .22s like .22-250 or .22/30-30. The Bee falls into line with current thought regarding shooting the old varmint rifles with lead bullets. I believe a properly set-up .270 Ren would do well (like a modern .28-30).
I will go out on a limb here and say I would never bet against the old .30-06. It is a grand cast-bullet cartridge albeit not of the schuetzen ilk (read old NRA stuff written by Col. E.H. Harrison and others). It IS a large case and most work done with it has been with gas check bullets, however the velocities at which most accuracy work has been done with the "06" have been in the 1600 - 1800 fps range. Decrease the velocity a bit and voila - your right in the range of current plain-base-bullet accuracy shooting. The strongest argument against cartridges like the .30-06 would be difficulty in breech-seating but I happen to believe fixed aammunition can compete given a properly chambered barrel and turned case necks as used by modern bench rest shooters.
A couple of alternative cartridges I would love to try with fixed ammunition are the .30 and .35 Herrets. Both are rimmed cases made by shortening the .30-30 case. Given a properly dimensioned and throated chamber with brass and bullets of correct dimensions and modern bullet designs (read Darr bullets) I believe these thing could be eye openers. If only experimenting didn't cost money!
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #6 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 8:14am
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after mulling things over a bit, I suppose a lot of it depends on your personal take on "schuetzen". 
If you are a traditionalist in the sense of wanting to shoot the guns used 100 years ago in the way they were shot then---kind of like a re-enactor without the funny clothes (other than hats) you may make a deliberate decision to restrict yourself to the classsic rifles and cartridges of that era.
Or you might be more of an experimenter who likes to push the envelope, as in "how far can we go within the non-bolt-single-shot-rifle with-plain-based-lead-alloy-bullets-at 200-yards limits" in which case the sky is pretty much the limit. and you may choose a more contemporary action, modern optics, fullblown benchrest stock, and a modern small capacity cartridge.
Id guess that most of us fall somewhere into the continium between them.

 Are you shooting "schuetzen"  because you like the laid back crowd / the friendly crowd / the competetive but low key environment / just love the old guns (the precision-tradition thing) or are you a "competitor" who is in it to "win" at what ever your current game of choice?  

All of these go into making the decision as to what is an appropriate "schuetzen" cartridge for you

From a personal standpoint; having got started late and poor I shoot what I can afford to.  I'd love to have gotten into it much earlier and with deeper pockets so I could have picked up some of those old classics when they were going for a few hundred bucks.  So like some of the other "younger" members (relatively) I shoot what I have managed to find/put together while lusting over the classic originals that show up on the trading tables at EG.
 I don't have the physical or technical skills to be a toplevel competitor or the pockets to build / buy top-level equipment.  Any day I can break 240 in the schoyen match (the game I'm most comfortable with) is a BIG red-letter day for me.  I have found myself getting more and more enamoured with the 200 yard rimfire schoyen matches and my ultimate dream would be to someday shoot a 250 at 200 with a 22rf.
 I'm really interested in the old 22cf varmint cartridge single shots and I'm pretty convinced that there may be a future in using them to compete with them--among themselves.  To the point where I'm searching in my local area for one to play with.

like the old saying I guess, "ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choice"
  

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40_Rod
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #7 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 8:58am
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The best caliber / chambering will depend a lot on your experience level. It will also depend on what you want to do Will you be shooting offhand or Bench rest? 
For a new shooter I would choose a 32-40. We have been shooting them for 120 years or so and the cartridge and chambering is pretty well rung out. Cases and bullet moulds are fairly easy to obtain. Its a great choice to learn about the Schuetzen game.
If you are a new shooter that plans on mainly shooting bench rest I would choose a 38-55. Again this is a cartridge that has been around the block and moulds and brass are easly obtainable. 
For those of you that are further op the learning curve I would go with the 32 Miller Short. Dies and brass are getting easier to find all the time. The case is a little more unforgiving but with careful load development they are proven winners.

40 Rod
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #8 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 10:09am
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A few comments (VBG):

Tradition is fine, but the 32-40 goes back only ~120 years while the Schuetzen tradition goes back ~400 years. So I don't pay much attention to the 'tradition' of the equipment. Witness some of the TRULY outlandish contraptions used by Schuetzen shooters in the late 1800s & early 1900s, as shown in The Journal during Rudi's era as editor!

There are 2 factors that are paramount in my mind when choosing a target cartridge, the first one is accuracy of course.

The second one is RECOIL!

These two factors tend to work together to a great degree, i.e. the bore size, powder capacity, powder type, lube performance, bullet design etc etc all combine to influence the initial accuracy during the first stages of a match but it's the continuing performance that wins the match. This continuing performance is directly influenced by, first the ongoing accuracy of the load & rifle, and secondly the ongoing accuracy of the shooter himself.

Large bore sizes contribute to better accuracy in a number of ways. Everything just seems to work better with a large bore diameter & relatively heavy bullet, but then the recoil goes way up. A small bore size with light bullet is easy on the shooter but the accuracy suffers a lot. A large powder capacity & bottleneck case is usually the kiss of death when trying for low velocity with cast bullets, but low velocity (1000-1500 fps) is the way to go IMO when shooting the 50-100 shot matches. Low velocity allows the lube to work better and the shooter to maintain his cool also.

So my choice would be a large bore size for good accuracy, a low bullet weight for less recoil but a high BC for wind bucking. These are mutually exclusive propositions as you can see, so a compromise is necessary.

Charlie Dell used a lighter bullet at higher velocity & got good results but he was very knowledgeable and had decades of experimentation behind him. The Quarter-Bore Corps has been trying to compete using the lighter bullets for many many years with only indifferent success most of the time. I personally would not choose to go the light route, my preferences would include a couple of middle-of-the-road cartridges that would be suitable for more than one shooting game, such as the std 38-55 or the 35-40 Maynard or the 357 Max.
JMOFWIW, good luck, Joe
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #9 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 2:22pm
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Size matters,  relatively.    with a 350 or 400 grain bullet, a small variation--say 1/4 grain will have a lot less impact that a 1/4 grain variation in a 180 or 200 grain bullet.
Similarly a larger case and larger powder charge will be more tolerent of minuscule variations than the smaller Dell/Miller type case loads.

As I understand the theory; the heavier a bullet is for its dimeter the better sectional density it has and the better it will shoot in windy (typical Etna green ) conditions----however ther rifle has to have a suitable twist to stabilize that bullet and it has to be loaded to the appropriate velocity.
   My first year of ASSRA at Etna Green I was shooting a badgerbarreled sporter Browning b-78 in 45-70 (1-18 twist) with 500 grain bullets.  The typical EG wind was a non-factor pretty much and I shot a few scores I have never equalled yet with my 38-55 'wall or ruger.  but then there is the recoil factor to work with.
  

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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #10 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 5:17pm
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Looking at match results and around firing lines I suspect If modern is what you are looking for the Miller/Dell cartridges are the way to go. 32's based on .357 Maximum cases.

Those cartridges using a modern striker action and internal adjustment scope will out shoot a traditional outfit. But not by much. I don't have a modern set up so cannot say for sure,  just see good scores tgurned in by those calibers.

If you are going tradtional then the 32/40 if Smokeless and 38/55 if Black powder are the logical choices. I have both and the increased recoil of the 38 does take it's toll but the 330 gr bullet bucks the wind better. And I think it works better with Black powder too.  Having said that I will aways shoot a higher score with my 32/40 than 38/55 Recoil is the reason

There could be a good reason to shoot one of the 7 mm's like the 28/30 Stevens.  Lighter recoil in the same weight gun or if you prefer same recoil but ligher rifle than a 32/40.  I am sure there is a simular 7 mm set up avalable in the short modern cases.  The reason to pick a 7 mm is to go light.

I suspect while good results have been posted with the 25's or even .22's it's the exception rather than the rule. I would guess If the same shooters were using 32's they would have shot higher scores.

Boats
  
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DonH
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #11 - Aug 26th, 2006 at 9:51am
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    You gents are all correct and if we were all logical about it and pure competition was the bottom line we would all be shooting .32 Dell/Millers in modern actions. Some, like myself, enjoy competing with the rifles of yesteryesr. There is nothing wrong with the other approach - just not my main motivation. i guess that puts me on the traditional side though not hide-bound.
    For those newer shooters, the pressures at which the Dell/miller cartridges operate is something to be considered and they may not be appropriate choices for all traditional actions. The .32-40 or .38-55 on the other hand can operate at very modest pressures.
    Reasons to try other cartridges are many, among which may be a simple desire to walk off the beaten path. Kinda like chosing something other than a small block Chevy engine for your street rod. There is also the new guy who would like to try our game but all he has is  Ruger 1/ Browning 78 in .30-06 or 7x57 or something. I say find an appropriate lead bullet, find an ASSRA shoot near you and give it a try with what you have. i believe the fun and camaraderie you will find will bring you back. Odds are you will end up with other equipment but even if you don't the people are worth coming back for!


Don

PS: For most of 30 years I have been part of another shooting venue which appears to be dying from lack of new shooters. I just don't want the newly interested guy to think this sport to be too impossible to give it a try. There are ideals we strive for in equipment and performance but truth is we are not all 250 shooters.
  
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Slick4k
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Re: What is an approiate caliber for Schuetzen
Reply #12 - Aug 26th, 2006 at 2:09pm
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   Thanks for all your advice and opinions. I guess what I want to do is just shoot.  Sometimes I like to compete, sometimes I just need to pull the trigger and see the holes in the paper. I really like shooting bp silhouette. The sound of lead on steel after the boom of the trigger pull is pure joy to my ears. I have a 45-90 rolling block for that. And it takes a lot of time doing load development. Something that seems to have disappeared since I started working 2 jobs. So a .22 would seem to be the next logical choice, but I just can't swing buying a Low-wall and I don' like the looks of the H&R's barrel (hate that pregnant breech hump and skinny barrel).
   So what's left? Well I'm saving my money to hopefully buy and build a Ruger No. 1 in 32-40, I still like bp.(thanks for clearing that part up and the velocity part, too) Maybe I'll go ahead and get a H&R in 22 and then rebarrel it with better looking barrel. 
 Back in 1980 When I started driving truck, I used to drive by this little gunshop in San Marcos California. Every once in a while I would pull in and look around at all the rifles they had. In one corner there were all these rifles with these huge wood stocked long guns with cheek pieces that stuck out into next week, long heavy barrels in un- known calibers. 300.00 to 700.00 dollars for these monstrosities. Wish I'd known then what I know now. Who know what might be sitting in my safe now. 
  Don't know if I'll ever get to EG but I'll always think of shooting against the best in the world every time I set targets and shoot 50 rounds for score. Maybe I'll even wind up enough courage to get in to a postal match. 
Thanks for the forum and your thoughts.
Slick4k
  
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