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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Accuracy expectations for .22LR (Read 28612 times)
MP
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Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Apr 27th, 2006 at 12:08pm
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What are the .22 SS match rifles capable of , group size, these days for say ten-shots at fifty, one-hundred and two hundred yards?   Thanks, MP
  
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boats
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #1 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 12:23pm
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MP I bet a lot of people will not agree with my opinion but let me quote an expert.  Lones Wigger gave a seminar for NRA small  bore shooters and said,

"If someone tells me he has a rifle that will shoot 1/2 groups at 100 meters I tell him to shoot it and I will give him 50 dollars"

He goes on to say occasionally you will get a 10 shot group that small and 3 shot groups at 1/2 inch are not uncommon. However he said if you have a rifle that will shoot bench or machine rest .60 or .65 MOA you have a pretty good shooting rifle.  He has seen few that meet that standard.

In my experence only the very best rifle with the best ammo. will stay within 1 moa under match conditons. I have seen and shot better but only for short run small samples 

Boats
  
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PETE
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #2 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 12:49pm
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MP,

  I'll have to agree with Boats, and Lones Wigger. My BSA MK IV with the old Federal UM1B would occasionally get down to 5/8" but it was more a 3/4" to 7/8" gun under really perfect conditions. And this would be for the 5 shot groups that we shoot in Schuetzen competition.

PETE
  
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Brent
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #3 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 2:49pm
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At 200 yds, I would say 1.5" for 10 shots is really good, and it is not likely that any gun will average that - even on a good day.  But I've shot several such groups in a row nonetheless.   

Expect to pay for the best ammo you can find (not necessarily the best you can afford).  There are no short cuts around ammo quality for benchrest at 200 yds

Brent
  
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Dale53
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #4 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 5:13pm
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This will always be a somewhat controversial subject. However, it is interesting to look at the actual match results.

This past weekend, I shot two (only two) group targets during conditions that charitably can be called "somewhat less than perfect". Both groups were under an inch and rather close in size. The better one measured .769" by the Schuetzenmeister. That particular performance, at 100 yards, put me down around seventh or eighth place, as I recall. So, a bunch of people shot pretty dern good groups "under the gun".

I have shot, during practice at fifty yards, with my Anschutz bolt action silhouette rifle three consecutive five shot groups just under or over .200" (.160"-.210" or so). That was under good conditions.

Using Jerry Johnson's grandfather's Ballard (C.C. Johnson) in force four (on the wind probe) I shot five straight 25's at 100 yards (just a practice target). So, I would say that .22's will beat Lones Wigger standard, when I compete against them, pretty often Roll Eyes

If you are asking if I can do .5" on demand at 100 yards, I would say, based on recent performances, not likely...

Dale53
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #5 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 6:29pm
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I willing to bet that,  if we have real calm conditions, someone will shoot a possible on the Schoyen at 200 yards at Etna Green within a year or two.  The 22 only rf matches are really bringing out some talent now that they are gathering some headway and word is getting out.  It is attracting some new new guys who are not part of our long-time schuetzen crowd but who are very experienced shooters attracted to the ASSRA-style shooting challenge.

I'm not that good a rifleman, my rifle is a 50 year old (at least) BSA #15, not one of the new heavy short-barrel versions with fine triggers and not stocked for benchrest shooting, and I am shooting the lower-priced Wolf TM; yet I have shot a 242 in a match and occasionally get 3 or 4 25s (its those 21s that kill me)  Someone who really knows what they are doing, has a top end rifle and real high quality match ammo is gonna do it

I'm not sure but If I remember correctly  Corky shot a 100 yard Kelly--(thats the 5 shot group isn't it?) that measured just a tad over .5".

Ammo, arms, and technique must have improved considerably since Wigger made that statement.
  

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Brent
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #6 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 6:33pm
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DWS, what is a "Schoyen"?  I'm familiar with the gunmaker, but not the target.  Could say the same about the "Kelly" more or less.   

Many of us don't shoot EG and don't have a clue what these terms mean.   

Brent
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #7 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 6:58am
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I apologize, it is easy to sort of forget that not everyone on the site is an ASSRA member.

 All ASSRA affiliated clubs use the same basic targets so we have uniformity of scores; thoug some hold unique local matches as well.  Many of the matches are named after early shooters or other honored members.
 For instance the "Hudson" is a 100 shot offhand match fired on a series of 10 standard 25 ring targets.  The Schoyen match is 10 shots fired for score  on the standard ASSRA 25 ring target.  Its a benchrest match.
 As near as I can measure the center on an ASSRA standard 25 ring target is 1.5" in diameter, all of the other rings are .75 inch wide.  So a "possible" would be all 10 shots inside a 1.5" circle at 200 yards--approximately .75 MOA if I understand it right

I think that all the 200 yard "for score" matches are fired on this same basic target, some are physically larger in that they show more scoring rings, but the bullseye and rings all have the same diameters.  There are also a series of reduced scale targets for the 100yd, and 50 ft rimfire.  Many of the tasrgets are 2 sided, printed in red on one side and black on the other.

I'm not too sure about the Kelly match since I don't shoot it.  It basically has several aiming points and is simply fired for the group size.

ASSRA holds a whole series of named matches that are fired on several different basic targets.  I beleive they are described in the rule book, but mine is in my shooting case.  They might be described on the website FAQs somewhere, if not, maybe they should be. Many of the targets themselves are portrayed in the Journal on the target order section.
  

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Brent
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #8 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 8:41am
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As a former member and current shooter, I am familiar with the targets but apparently, "Schoyen," as used here, refers to a match, not specifically a target.  Even when I was a member, I did not know what a "Schoyen" was.   

Thanks for the detailed description.  No problem envisioning what you are talking about now.  I believe several possibles have been shot on the 25 ring target at 200 yds at our club.  Can't swear to it though.  We do not shoot named matches except for the Hudson which we shot last year in conjunction with the WSU.

Brent
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #9 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 10:54am
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Brent are you talking possibles with the centerfires or the 22s?  

We seem to have one or two with the centerfires each season now at EG. 
Two years ago we had one guy who ran a 250/200yd/10shot BR with a 38-55---on his sighter target---clear white paper all around the group. he punched the center out of the center.  I don't recall it being measured but I'll bet it was almost a 1" group.   There was a picture of it in the Journal. 
Skill and equipment is getting better.  However at EG the big joker in the deck is the wind.  EG is on the N IN Prairie and close enough to the big lakes to get some real squirrely wind conditions.

I think that we have some real good shooters who all have top notch equipment.  At the upcoming Spring match there should be maybe 5 or 6 guys who are technically and technologically capable of shooting a 250 on a calm day,  the difference will be their wind reading and handling skill.

That is also the biggest issue I think with the 22s,  at 200 yards wind and mirage are really critical.

Maybe the named matches are an EG thing.  I've never shot elsewhere so I don;t know how others do it.

  

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Brent
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #10 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 11:00am
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I was refering to rimfire targets.  But I can't be sure that I'm remembering properly.   

I think I will do it eventually.  The rifle is good enough.  Just need good conditions, some luck, some practice.   

That someone WILL shoot a possible in competition is a no brainer.  It will happen, even if there is no further incremental improvements in equipment, ammo, or shooter ability.  But that only means that this is a stochastic problem.  That someone will do it consistently- that is entirely another.   

Brent
  
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #11 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 10:42pm
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I don't think Wiggers assesment is too far off.  He thought it a pretty safe bet that a 10 shot 1/2 inch group was not going to be shot by many people at 100 meters. Thats 10 shots and Meters not yards. Not a 100 % sure bet but a safe one.

And he said a .60 MOA rifle was pretty darn good. Not that Rifle/Ammo/Shooters that could do it were not out there but only the very  best would equal that standard.

Of course at a well attended ASSRA match some of the rifles are the very best and the shooters are too.Wiggers benchmarks for accucary could probably be equaled by the top shooters at times.

Let me ask this, has a perfect Rimfire Scoyen score ever been turned in under match conditons ?  Since the 25 ring is 3/4 Moa and the Scoyen is 10 shots it would probably take a .60 moa rifle under perfect conditons to clean the target. I do think it's possable but betting against it would be a very safe bet. 

Boats

  
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JDSteele
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #12 - Apr 29th, 2006 at 7:19am
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What Boats said. Regards, Joe
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #13 - Apr 29th, 2006 at 10:46am
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I have seen a couple of perfect .22 rimfire 10 shot 3/4 inch bull targets fired during ISSRA competitons.

The ability to do this consistently does not necessarily have to do with the rifle or the shooter.

It is the consistency of the ammo you are able to obtain.

It is not uncommon to get at least one flyer out of every ten shots; even with the best and most expensive ammo out there.

Occassionally you can get off ten shots without a flyer, but like Lones Wigger, I would bet against it and the odds would be with me.

Both of my BSA International MKIIs frequently shoots 249/250. So I know it's not my rifle; now the question is it the ammo or me that results in that tenth shot being just outside the bull?
  
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Re: Accuracy expectations for .22LR
Reply #14 - Apr 29th, 2006 at 12:11pm
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The ISSA uses leaded edge for brench .22 so by the ASSRA rules almost all of the 250's shot under ISSA rules would not be 250's uinder our rules.
fallingblock
  

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Laurie
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