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joeb33050
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Error Lyman STS
Feb 28th, 2006 at 8:01am
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I have made a number of errors in recording settings of Lyman STS scopes; whole-revolution errors. I discover the error when next shooting that rifle.
I would like to knopw of anyone else who has experienced this kind of error.
Thanks;
joe b.
  
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boats
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #1 - Feb 28th, 2006 at 8:25am
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Joe

It's easy to get it wrong particulary at a match. I had the same problem with Weaver "T"s which don't have a range index.  My STS has a distance mark for paralax but still I keep records in the same fashion. One of my friends got me doing it like this.

I read them like a micrometer writing the index marks in my range book.

When logging Paralax adjustment I write "4/7"   The four is the fully visiable number on the barrel of the scope. the 7 is on the rotating bell

For elevations and windage Sometimes I will add another index number like "2/10+2"  That means 2 on the fixed barrel of the knob.  10 on the rotating knob itself and + 2 means two index marks past the 10. I never log - always +

The only time I use clicks is when actualy shooting and feel like I need to put a minute or two on elavation or windage without looking at the knobs. And after shooting I record the change I have put on the scope. That way I can go back to zero for the particular target if the wind shifts.

I also don't trust the range index for fine paralax adjustment. It's close but not exact and find most scopes I use are set off  slightly from the indicated ranges

Key to all of this is always using the first fully visable index mark on the fixed part of the scope. And keeping a good record book

Boats
  
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FITZ
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #2 - Feb 28th, 2006 at 3:36pm
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Kripes Joe its a micrometer! The screw pitch is 40 thds per inch and one full rotation is .025. just read it like a micrometer. The biggest problem is that the graduations get all crapped up with dried oil and stuff. Clean them up and make up your mind about where the bottom is, o.oo and read from there. FITZ
  

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joeb33050
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #3 - Mar 1st, 2006 at 5:55am
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I know it's a micrometer, Bob. I have notebooks that show that I've made one-revolution errors a number of times in the past with STS scopes.
What brought the subject up is the powder measure test I'm currently working on. I've got micrometer powder measures from RCBS, Hornady and Redding, on loan, for the test. Each measure takes about a full day to test. During the re-setting part of the test on the RCBS Competition measure I made two different one-revolution errors setting the measure. That brought to mind the STS problems. I looked at the RCBS measure micrometer for a long time, fiddled with it. I can't exactly explain the problem but it has to do with 1. the fixed scale ain't linear = the fixed mark at zero ain't where the fixed mark is at ?120? for example, and 2. there's a big difference between the barrel OD and the thimble ID means that it reads different depending on what angle you're looking from.
The Redding and Hornady measures have micrometers that look more like those on micrometer calipers.
I don't know why the STS problems, I've yet to look at one closely to see if I can figure out WHY it happens, but there's no question that for me it DOES happen.
However, I seem to be the only one.
(BTW, look in the book for great explanations of STS and Iron sight inc. vernier adjustments.)
Hope you're feeling better.
joe b.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #4 - Mar 1st, 2006 at 10:47am
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Problems with reading and setting vernier and micrometer (NOT the same) scales can almost always be traced to one source, and one source only. There are many solutions depending upon the exact nature of the problem, but there's usually only one (extremely simple) cause.

In aviation it's called Pilot Error.

In the nuclear industry we found many such instances, some caused by improper education, others caused by improper attention to detail, still others caused by unclear direction. We found that an acceptable solution always included a written procedure designed to be comprehensible to, and readily followed by, the lowest common denominator.

The system mentioned above, with its description of the appearance of the scale, seems to me to be very good.
Good luck, Joe
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #5 - Mar 1st, 2006 at 4:45pm
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The question is simple. Has anyone had the experience of reading the setting of a Lyman STS scope incorrectly by one revolution? That's the question. 
I have. Not during a match. Not with any pressure on me. Not because I didn't want to record the settings correctly.
Boats comments regarding the parallax setting are right on. I looked at a scope at the range today, and see the same distance between the moving and stationary members, allowing different conclusions after looking at the scope.
We're not talking about pilot error here, we're talking about micrometers that do not have the characteristics of proper measuring instruments.
I'm all set on advice, looking for DATA, FACTS. 
Maybe I'm the only person inb the world who ever made this kind of error. But if not, I'd like to hear about it.
Thanks;
joe b.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #6 - Mar 1st, 2006 at 7:22pm
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The question is simple. Has anyone had the experience of reading the setting of a Lyman STS scope incorrectly by one revolution? That's the question. 

We're not talking about pilot error here, we're talking about micrometers that do not have the characteristics of proper measuring instruments.

I'm all set on advice, looking for DATA, FACTS. 
Maybe I'm the only person inb the world who ever made this kind of error. But if not, I'd like to hear about it.
Thanks;
joe b.


To answer your question, no I don't use Lyman scopes, but I believe my Unertls have roughly the same system. And I have made a similar error by turning the knob in the wrong direction and that's pilot error.

But I don't understand your reference to "micrometers that do not have the characteristics of proper measuring instruments" since the only characteristics that I see lacking are a few actual numbers on the dials. How about some more details?

And I really don't see how the result of getting a full turn off could possibly be due to anything else but pilot error. The scope certainly didn't change by itself! Your reference to "reading the setting incorrectly" is, I believe, quite revealing and is also further evidence IMO.

To answer your initial question further, no I have never read the Unertl settings incorrectly nor have I ever gotten a full turn off, but I have turned the knob the wrong way when making minor corrections without looking at the scale or the eyepiece (and, it appears, without thinking either! [VBG]).
Good luck, Joe

PS: BTW if you're reading the dials in such a position that your eye isn't properly aligned with the two scales, then you certainly must compensate for that. If you don't, then of course that's pilot error and is not the scope's fault. JMO
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #7 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 4:58am
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To answer your question, no I don't use Lyman scopes, but I believe my Unertls have roughly the same system. And I have made a similar error by turning the knob in the wrong direction and that's pilot error.

But I don't understand your reference to "micrometers that do not have the characteristics of proper measuring instruments" since the only characteristics that I see lacking are a few actual numbers on the dials. How about some more details?


If you don't have a STS, you haven't had the experience.
If you haven't examined a STS in the context of the explanation above, you can't understand the explanation or the difference in characteristics.
If you have an RCBS Competition measure you could understand the explanation and the question.
Without one or the other you have nothing to bring to the table to help me except opinion unfettered by knowledge of the situation.
I'm beginning to suspect that this is the wrong question to ask of the wrong people, it seems that mistakes are made very infrequently here.
JD, borrow a STS, spend some time with it, then talk to me.
joe b.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #8 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 7:27am
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Your response seemed a little extreme to me, I have no interest in borrowing an STS merely to learn how to read a different kind of scale (you say it's different but didn't explain.........hmmm). I was merely trying to get a clearer sense of exactly what kind of trouble you are having so as to try to help you. It appears that you may not want to or be able to provide an understandable explanation for your comments, so I'll happily bow out of this 'discussion' (VBG).

My Daddy always told me that it's a poor workman who blames his tools, and, without a further explanation from you, it appears to this reader that that's what you're attempting to do.

IMO it ain't the scope's fault. Plenty of folks have been using this scope for many decades with satisfaction.
JMO, Joe

PS: maybe YOU should try using a Unertl to get another perspective?
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #9 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 3:51pm
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Borrow one, Joe. You'll enter the realm of data, leave the morass of opinion. Will somebody lend Joe a STS? Where are you? Maybe I could lend you one.
joe b.
  
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Schutzenbob
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #10 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 8:27pm
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Joe,

Last April at our San Diego regional a friend from Arizona had a nice target going with lots of 25's and then started shooting 17's and 18's. After he cooled off, I asked him what happen and he told me that his scope suddenly jumped out of adjustment and that there was something wrong with the rings.(it was a Lyman STS) At the time I thought it was just the nut behind the butt, but maybe not! He has since switched to his Unertl. Now, if I had your scope I would carefully take the rear ring apart and mike and check the threads to make sure there isn't anything wrong there, if that wasn't it I would ship the scope back to Parson's optical and have Gil check it out. The last of the STS's left Lyman about 1972, so they're all getting old and it's possible that something may have come loose, and just by the way my favorite Lyman Super Targetspot has Unertl rings.

Bob
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Error Lyman STS
Reply #11 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 8:55pm
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Joe,

and just by the way my favorite Lyman Super Targetspot has Unertl rings.

Bob



and also just BTW in several side-by-side comparisons over the years, in my experience Unertls have proven clearly (pun intended) superior to the Lymans. Guess I wuz just lucky that I never encountered the dreaded 'Super Target Spot Thread Strip' or whatever it is. Or maybe I'm lucky I never got anything caught under my adjustment bearing points when returning the scopes to battery...............?
Heh Heh, Joe
  
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