"Ringing" chambers
Much has been written about "ringing" chambers when wads, particularly Dacron wads, are used over powder.
I have used Dacron wads for many years in cartridges from 223 Rem to 45/70, shooting thousands -maybe tens of thousands-of shots, and have never ringed a chamber.
I have read intricate explanations of how the ringing occurs, written by presumably sincere folks who were substituting theory and/or conjecture for fact.
Ed Lander, a Massachusetts gunsmith at the time, said that he believed that chamber ringing was caused by a chip catching in the reamer during the chambering process. He suggested that repeated use of one cartridge case during breech seating allowed the brass to flow into the ring.
I've read everything I can find, nothing convincing so far. The list is below.
I'm looking for data that supports the wad-ringing explanation. I do not need any more theories unsupported by data, my file is full.
Thanks;
joe b.
References:
"This Chamber Ring Thing", John Campbell, Precision Shooting, May 2000
Chapter 17B, "Chamber Ringing", C. Dell, "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle, 2nd Edition
"Chamber Rings and Natural Fibers", ASSRA Journal, Jul-Aug 1998, J. Campbell
"Chamber Rings, Another View" ASSRA Journal, Jul-Aug 2002, M.L.MxPherson
ASSRA Journal letters etc:, Volume, No., Pg. Author
47,6,14 J. Campbell
48,3,20 H. Angus      
48,3,23 J. Brennan
48,4,16 L. Thompson
48,4,17 J. Childs
50,4,22 J. Campbell

I personally do not believe in the chip-in-the-reamer theory. The resulting ring would be very visible on the case the first time a cartridge was fired in the new chamber, and any decent gunsmith would correct the situation immediately after test-firing. Actually almost all rings caused by chambering are very visible when the smith shines a light down into the chamber after the chambering is complete, and so will be caught & corrected even before the test-fire.

You can call this an unsubstantiated theory if you like, but I've been doing this stuff for a long time now. I've even had a few chip-caused chamber rings appear in some of my jobs (I know, hard to believe, isn't it? [VBG]) and I know that they are impossible to miss.

I'll go with Charlie's data.
Regards, Joe

Ditto to the comments of mssrs Rod, Steel, and hst.

The work of Charlie Dell is anything but "theories unsupported by data" by ANY definition of the word, "data."  His work was predicated by the nineteenth century work with real data collected and analyzed by Vielle.  As stated by 40 Rod, the tests involved brass "chambers" to allow the cumulative effect of the individual impulses to become visible and measurable more quickly, but also used at least one salvaged original barrel of mild steel...from a Winchester, if memory serves.  Dell further noted that the greater the strength of the steel, the more slowly the effects of the phenomenon would be noticeable, hence the use of the brass "chamber."  The data was extensive and the conclusions were carefully drawn based on that data...that is the essence of the scientific method and as close to absolute truth as we of scientific training ever feel we can come.

Your reference to Ed Lander is somewhat counter to your request when you state that "he BELIEVED that..." and "SUGGESTED that..." (emphasis mine) without giving any evidence that HE had done any testing of the phenomenon.  It would appear that you are using the method you condemn to defend your argument.

If you are unconvinced by the data of Dell and others, you have but to repeat the carefully documented procedure and demonstrate to one and all that their observations of the results were incorrect in some way (which is the accepted method within the scientific community of vetting someone's work.)  In the meanwhile, I will join the overwhelming majority who accepts that the Earth is round, that the Sun is the center of the Solar System, and that the phenomenon of chamber ringing is a real occurrence.

Green Frog

Froggie;
Well said.

HST;
Just curious. Is the barrel with a chamber ring an original soft barrel or is it a modern chrome moly barrel?

"Inquiring minds need to know."

Dale53

Thanks, Glenn;

Dale53

For What It Is Worth:

I have run across a number of barrels that have rings just behind the choke... these were brought in by customers who switched to steel shot.

I was next to a gentleman who ringed his 1917 Colt .45 Auto Rim firing old ammo in double action rapid fire.

I have replaced a number of barrels on rifles that were ringed but the cause was not readily apparent.

I have experienced one example of ringing in a rifle that I built myself.  The rifle was a Falling Block, the barrel was a 32" octagon chome-molly blank.  I chambered the rifle in .50-90, used 450 grain bullets and test fired it a number of times at the range with duplex blackpowder (Goex Cart & 4759)... no problem.

I switched to Accurate Arms 5744 and a Wonder Wad and ringed the chamber badly on the first shot.

I rechambered to .50-140, switched back to duplex loads and never experienced the ringing again.

Others may do what they wish but I will not load non-compressed loads with any wads again.

[quote author=Voyageur link=board=gd;num=1139315421;start=0#10 date=02/09/06 at 12:58:01]
"I was next to a gentleman who ringed his 1917 Colt .45 Auto Rim firing old ammo in double action rapid fire."

I watched a friend do that with a Colt New Service in 45 Colt. He ended up with 6 bullets in the barrel.


"I have experienced one example of ringing in a rifle that I built myself.  The rifle was a Falling Block, the barrel was a 32" octagon chome-molly blank.  I chambered the rifle in .50-90, used 450 grain bullets and test fired it a number of times at the range with duplex blackpowder (Goex Cart & 4759)... no problem.

I switched to Accurate Arms 5744 and a Wonder Wad and ringed the chamber badly on the first shot.

I rechambered to .50-140, switched back to duplex loads and never experienced the ringing again."

Thank you, that is just what I'm looking for, first hand experiences. 

I have read much on chamber ringing, but tell me please; will a chamber ring increase to the point the gun fails? 
Is chamber ringing cosmetic, or cause hard extraction, or a real danger to life and limb.
Best,
Mike
Central Va.

     I have seen a number of the .32 Miller shooters push their wad down onto the powder which according to C. Dell is a sure way to ring your chamber.  I wonder how many if any of those rifles have a ring just in front of the chamber at the base of the bullet? 
     Perhaps the small volumn of the .32 Miller case has a bearing on this problem.

Like the Charles Askins book, Hell, I was there. Many on this board would trust that if I say I participated in some of Charlie and Helbert's testing then there's a good chance I was. I'm tempted to make the offer.....loan me one of your rifles and I'll ring the fool out of it for you per the Dell prescription and pay postage both ways. Charlie and Helbert taught me how and yes it can be duplicated with alarming regularity. But then Dad would chastize me for making the offer and of course be adamant that I wasn't going to do that. Why don't you call him and ask him to explain the tests to you or better yet go visit. I'm sure he'd relish the discussion. And yes, he'd be ok with me making the offer. If you'll PM me I'll give you his telephone number and call ahead for you to prearrange the discussion. You might learn something from this old man.

Martin,  You are of course correct. I can only offer the hour of my post as an explanation. I was still at work, obviously a little  . Thanks for the refresher.

[quote author=JDSteele "BTW, ARE you a gunsmith? "
No

"You've asked for our real names, what's yours?"
Joseph F. Brennan Jr.

"I'd be curious to know just how much expertise & experience you have in this field, how about giving us a rundown?"

Here's what I wrote here in the past:
I don't claim to be a great or even good Schuetzen shooter. I'm certainly not a good offhand shooter. 
In 1983 I was only 17th at the Coors match. 
I've won many bench matches at Old Colony, shooting at least 2 250's at 100 yards, and many groups under .5", some few in the .2XX's. Once I can recall a group under 1" at 200 yards for 5 shots. 
At Western New York I don't recall ever leaving without winning a match, with some pretty fair 100 and 200 yard bench group and score results. 
We shot once in CT., won some sort of big bowl for group shooting. 
Went to Long Island a couple of times, won there too. 
At the Palmisano range in PA I remember talking to Dr. P at great length, and winning a bench ?RF? match. That's where we met Dick Norton. 
In April I drove 350 miles to Palm Bay, had trouble with my rifles (Kroil), left just after lunch on the first day, and at 200 yards shot a 1.7XX" 5-shot group. They allow 2 targets for each match, that's the extent of re-entry. 
Palm Bay is the closest range where anybody does Schuetzen shooting. 
I've been to E.G. twice, don't recall winning any match but I think I remember being in the money.   
Wednesday, at the Trail Glades Range in Miami, with an M54 Winchester in 30WCF, at 100 yards, I shot groups of .9", 1.3" 
.8", .975" and .9"-all measured to the closest .025". This rifle has a 24" light barrel, 10# trigger pull and was made in 1928. 
1-2 sighters and two 5-shot groups were shot during each 15 minute relay. 
My interests are in experimenting and collecting data on shooting, every trip to the range is to perform a set of experiments. I also like to write about shooting. 
I have little interest in the ASSRA bench competition with unlimited re-entry and 2 days to shoot. This proves nothing except that anybody can get lucky now and then. It is more a test of stamina and resistance to boredom. I wonder what scores and groups would look like if an ASSRA match was held under the "Original PA 1000 Yard BR Club" routine, or like the old time bench match at VT. 
I am greatly interested in the SS guys that compete in CBA matches and group and score better than many shooting all classes of bolt guns.   
That's it, Pete-I never set the world on fire, and never will. But I can tell the difference between BS and the real world, and enjoy pointing the difference out. 
joe b.   

We've been married 43 years, have 5 kids and 7 grandkids.
I've written articles for the ASSRA Journal and The Fouling Shot, and wrote "Cast Bullets For Beginner And Expert", published by the CBA.I'm now working on the second edition of the(damn) book.
I have a B.S. in Industrial Management, an M.A. in Economics, and one year postgrad study in Urban Transportation. I graduated college at 33 with 5 kids.
My trades are carpenter/builder, my son has the business now, and Industrial Engineer.
My scholarly interest is in Economics, and particularly the application of statistical tools to real-life questions. See my fairly recent article in the Journal on Statistics and Shooting.
I worked for several private companies and my last 16 years at work were with DoD in procurement-buying those $300 hammers.
We've been retired and living in Marathon, on the Keys, since Sept. 2000.   

"I suspect you already know about Charlie Dell's expertise (so why do you doubt his work?)."

I doubt almost everything, it's paid off big time for the last 45 years. I approach each topic for the book with doubt. The relationship between BHN and chamber pressure has been established and written about by several well-respected members of the shooting community. There are maybe a dozen references. After working on the subject for months, we found the whole notion to be false. All BS. Doesn't mean that the writers were lying, just that they were wrong. We can all be wrong. Even, sob, me.
Came time to approach the chamber ringing topic for the book. Looked up and at all the references I could find. Couldn't get copmfortable, wasn't convinced. Went to the forums for data, stories that substantiated the theory. Here we are.


I started shooting and reloading in 1960, when I got out of the Air Force.

"So it's impossible for me to credit the chip-in-the-reamer theory as being the cause of so many instances of chamber ringing after shooting. I hope that you aren't seriously going to suggest that all those barrels had chip-caused rings, and that this occurred only with the folks who used Dacron wads?"


"so many instances of chamber ringing after shooting."
Where are they? They are what I'm looking for.

Are you sure that the Winchester, Savage, Remington and other commercial makers don't turn out guns with reamer-chip chamber rings?   


Is this enough, or do you need more detail?
joe b.

I registered just so I could put my two cents in.

Do you fellows have a different Chapter 17 in your Charlie Dell book than I do?

My book says Mr. Dell got chamber ringing with no wads. He surmised air compression at the base of the bullet caused ringing. His additional test showed that Dacron was the least effective in reducing ringing. My copy of Mr. Dells book doesn't say any wads caused ringing.  Am I reading that wrong?


DD

As per Charlie Dell;
When the wad is seated .100"-.200' off the powder, it reduceds the ringing force to the point that it is no longer a danger to the barrel. Powder, when slumped, does not cause the perpendicular pressure wave that causes ringing.

Charlie made up a wad seater that accomplished what he had found was necessary  (seated the wad .100"-.200" off the powder) and used it religiously. It is easy to do and eliminates the potential problem. Seems like a plan to me...

Dale53

Cat_Whisperer;
There is no picture of a wad seater in the book. I don't have a picture to show you. However, you can make a very serviceable wad seater from a brass bolt of an appropriate size with two nuts on it (making a jam nut). Seat a wad down on the powder (I use floral foam 1/4" thick), measure, then make your tool .100"-.200" shorter. This will seat your wad the requisite distance away from the powder. I also use a .060" wad at the mouth of the case to protect the bullet base from the powder kernels (the floral foam vaporizes at ignition). I prefer either LDPE or vegetable fiber.

Dale53

Dale53 -

Thanx - good description.  I'm working up on a Ruger #3 set up for Schuetzen in .375 Win that I've had for about 6 years now and need to shoot.

Is the foam/LPDE combintation perfered over (as DD hinted at) something like COW?   

Cat_Whisperer;
    I don't think that a foam wad work very well with a .375 Win.  That is a tapered case and a wad cut by the case mouth will, I think, be loose when it is down by the powder. If this was a .32-40 I know it would be loose. 
    If it is loose it may flop over and lay on the inside case wall or be pushed forward by the powder rather than hold the powder in its slumped position. Perhaps cutting a thick wad would help.  It may not be a problem with a powder such as IMR 4759 but probably would be with ball powders.
    A Rocky Mountain custom everlasting case with an untapered inside would work.  I think I would try this case with several powders and no wad first.

i still think this chamber ringing is because of over-charging, my father fired thousands of rounds in his .38-55 Sharps-Borchart rifle with the powder(usually 18-20 grains of 4227) held back againest the primer with a 1/16" cork wad. He Finally wore the barrel out, but never ringed it.

Of the eight schuetzen members in our club that have fired at least 30,000 rounds through their rifle, only one has ever ringed a barrel.
All of our club members place the wad directly onto the powder charge. We all use either styrofoam wads or the material used for sealing against drafts under sill plates. However the only member to use the floral foam for wads was the one who ringed his barrel. Coincidence? Maybe. 

All of the barrels in question were stainless steel and we all use the .357 Max case cut back to 1.470 which is tapered with a .223 die. We all use AA#9 / H108. However the ringed barrel was chambered for  a shortened 32-40 case.

So is there something to be learned regarding the material used for wads or the case design or the combination of the two?

If ringing was due to pushing the wad down onto the powder then I expect the rest of us should have ringed our barrels after over 30,000 rounds respectively.

You might want to consider that using "Schuetzendave's" own figures, one out of eight has ringed a barrel (with modern steel). 

I don't know about you, but I don't find those odds comforting. I and the fellers that built my Peregrine match rifle spent a lot of money and a lot of effort to produce a rifle capable of winning a schuetzen match at the highest level (I'm not there yet, but my rifle is ). Eight to One odds do not comfort me, when the solution to reducing the ringing force below the level of damage is simply to seat the wad .100" off the powder. I'll continue to do it and let you fellers "roll the dice".

YMMV
Dale53

So, is that all the stories about chamber ringing? The data seems to be thin on the ground.
Anyone else?
Thanks;
joe b.

Let me just toss out a remark (for what little it's worth) that Charlie Dell has identified a mechanism wherein chamber ringing is produced.  It is reportably repeatable.  Mr. Dell has no small reputation in this community as well as professionally in tool & die work.  It is in addition to this that I see Joe seeking out as many occurances as he can - that's good resarch - to find if there are OTHER ways ringing can be caused.  It's well known that anecdotal references are some of the least reliable sources from which to draw conclusions, but they certainly can point to areas for further research.

Ray pointed me to an article in the January 2006 Guns & Ammo, "Low-Recoil Loads", by Bob Forker, page 24. He recommends using "...a small plug of Dacron wool on top of the powder." with jacketed bullets in .243, .260, .270, .280, 7mm Rem Mag. 
??
joe b.

I've read a lot about trapdoors, and contracy to general advice, the actions are very strong-but the barrels were made of de-carbonized steel for ease of production(this from an original manual on production of trapdoors).This stuff is so weak(not even mild-steel) i would never use ANYTHING BUT BLACK POWDER in a trapdoor. Once i read that book, i never used a smokeless load again-all you have to make is one mistake, and there's your rifle-ruined.