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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chamber Ringing (Read 30923 times)
joeb33050
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Chamber Ringing
Feb 7th, 2006 at 7:30am
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"Ringing" chambers
Much has been written about "ringing" chambers when wads, particularly Dacron wads, are used over powder.
I have used Dacron wads for many years in cartridges from 223 Rem to 45/70, shooting thousands -maybe tens of thousands-of shots, and have never ringed a chamber.
I have read intricate explanations of how the ringing occurs, written by presumably sincere folks who were substituting theory and/or conjecture for fact.
Ed Lander, a Massachusetts gunsmith at the time, said that he believed that chamber ringing was caused by a chip catching in the reamer during the chambering process. He suggested that repeated use of one cartridge case during breech seating allowed the brass to flow into the ring.
I've read everything I can find, nothing convincing so far. The list is below.
I'm looking for data that supports the wad-ringing explanation. I do not need any more theories unsupported by data, my file is full.
Thanks;
joe b.
References:
"This Chamber Ring Thing", John Campbell, Precision Shooting, May 2000
Chapter 17B, "Chamber Ringing", C. Dell, "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle, 2nd Edition
"Chamber Rings and Natural Fibers", ASSRA Journal, Jul-Aug 1998, J. Campbell
"Chamber Rings, Another View" ASSRA Journal, Jul-Aug 2002, M.L.MxPherson
ASSRA Journal letters etc:, Volume, No., Pg. Author
47,6,14 J. Campbell
48,3,20 H. Angus      
48,3,23 J. Brennan
48,4,16 L. Thompson
48,4,17 J. Childs
50,4,22 J. Campbell
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #1 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 8:20am
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I belive that Charlie Dell's work on chamber ringing work is the best work on the subject. it is based on the work of a 19th century frenchman who studied ringing in relation to shotgun barrels. Charlie made barrels out of brass so that what would be a small amount of ringing in a steel barrel would be more measureable. By the end of testing he understood the problem so well that he could ring a chamber at will and did so using no wad at all and pointing the barrel stright up. 

40 Rod
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #2 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 10:05am
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I personally do not believe in the chip-in-the-reamer theory. The resulting ring would be very visible on the case the first time a cartridge was fired in the new chamber, and any decent gunsmith would correct the situation immediately after test-firing. Actually almost all rings caused by chambering are very visible when the smith shines a light down into the chamber after the chambering is complete, and so will be caught & corrected even before the test-fire.

You can call this an unsubstantiated theory if you like, but I've been doing this stuff for a long time now. I've even had a few chip-caused chamber rings appear in some of my jobs (I know, hard to believe, isn't it? [VBG]) and I know that they are impossible to miss.

I'll go with Charlie's data.
Regards, Joe
  
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hst
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #3 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 12:58pm
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What Mr. Steele said. 
Exactly.

Glenn
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #4 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 1:39pm
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Ditto to the comments of mssrs Rod, Steel, and hst.

The work of Charlie Dell is anything but "theories unsupported by data" by ANY definition of the word, "data."  His work was predicated by the nineteenth century work with real data collected and analyzed by Vielle.  As stated by 40 Rod, the tests involved brass "chambers" to allow the cumulative effect of the individual impulses to become visible and measurable more quickly, but also used at least one salvaged original barrel of mild steel...from a Winchester, if memory serves.  Dell further noted that the greater the strength of the steel, the more slowly the effects of the phenomenon would be noticeable, hence the use of the brass "chamber."  The data was extensive and the conclusions were carefully drawn based on that data...that is the essence of the scientific method and as close to absolute truth as we of scientific training ever feel we can come.

Your reference to Ed Lander is somewhat counter to your request when you state that "he BELIEVED that..." and "SUGGESTED that..." (emphasis mine) without giving any evidence that HE had done any testing of the phenomenon.  It would appear that you are using the method you condemn to defend your argument.

If you are unconvinced by the data of Dell and others, you have but to repeat the carefully documented procedure and demonstrate to one and all that their observations of the results were incorrect in some way (which is the accepted method within the scientific community of vetting someone's work.)  In the meanwhile, I will join the overwhelming majority who accepts that the Earth is round, that the Sun is the center of the Solar System, and that the phenomenon of chamber ringing is a real occurrence.

Green Frog
  
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hst
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #5 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 3:54pm
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The Earth is round??

FWIW, I gots it a ringed chamber in the shop and it looks pretty real to me. Cry

Glenn
  
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Dale53
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #6 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 5:37pm
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Froggie;
Well said.

HST;
Just curious. Is the barrel with a chamber ring an original soft barrel or is it a modern chrome moly barrel?

"Inquiring minds need to know." Shocked

Dale53
  
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hst
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #7 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 6:30pm
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Dale:

It is in an original #3 weight Winchester barrel on a flat spring action, chambered in .32-40. It is a fairly early rifle and so I assume the mild steel barrel.

The ring is centered about 3/16  back from the case mouth. 

Glenn
  
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Dale53
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #8 - Feb 7th, 2006 at 11:51pm
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Thanks, Glenn;

Dale53
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #9 - Feb 9th, 2006 at 5:21am
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There are perhaps more warnings in the first edition about wads than are necessary, and these warnings have been continued into the second edition. 
I have put off examination of this topic because of the ad hominem defense and comments that were expected, and these expectations were met above-particular thanks to Charles the frog for his lecture.
The search for examples, stories, data continues. I'm looking for "My 32-40 Knurlman, built in 1892 and owned by me since 1987 and fired countless times with breech-seated bullets and smokeless powder; developed a chamber ring ~1/8" below the case mouth when fired with fixed ammunition, 192 grain bullet, 14.5/IMR4227, Rem 2 1/2 primers and a Dacron wad."
A to-me surprising number of chamber ring stories have to do with new or re-barreled rifles. 
The Third Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, as we all know, recommends the use of Dacron wads with light charges of faster powders. Many shooters used these Dacron wads, and many still do-if my mail is true. Stories of the use of Dacron wads with thousands of shots by many shooters and no rings.
I just now, just this second, finished reading, once again, Chapter 17B in "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle". I don't for a minute think that Charlie Dell didn't do what he said he did, or that his results aren't what he said they were. I just can't reach the conclusion, from this and the other references, that a Dacron wad holding any reasonable charge of reasonable powder behind a reasonable bullet in fixed ammunition will cause a chamber ring.
I don't think that 10 grains of Bullseye behind a 375248 in 38-55 is a reasonable charge of a reasonable powder. How many of you have used this load? Have used Bullseye for target shooting in a rifle?
As our resident expert on the scientific method will agree, the essential test of a theory is test of the theory.
I can't ring a chamber on a C. Sharps with a 432 grain Ohaus mold bullet over 15/Unique and a Dacron wad, and I've tried for years. Neither can I ring a chamber with 18-22 SR4759, Dacron wad, same gun same bullet. Or in 1903 springfield, 1885 Winchester 38-55, 1882 Maynard 32-35, Werndl, 30-30 Martini bench gun, or the others. I can't do it. 
Can you? Did you? That's what I'm interested in.
Thanks;
joe b.
  
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Voyageur
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #10 - Feb 9th, 2006 at 12:58pm
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For What It Is Worth:

I have run across a number of barrels that have rings just behind the choke... these were brought in by customers who switched to steel shot.

I was next to a gentleman who ringed his 1917 Colt .45 Auto Rim firing old ammo in double action rapid fire.

I have replaced a number of barrels on rifles that were ringed but the cause was not readily apparent.

I have experienced one example of ringing in a rifle that I built myself.  The rifle was a Falling Block, the barrel was a 32" octagon chome-molly blank.  I chambered the rifle in .50-90, used 450 grain bullets and test fired it a number of times at the range with duplex blackpowder (Goex Cart & 4759)... no problem.

I switched to Accurate Arms 5744 and a Wonder Wad and ringed the chamber badly on the first shot.

I rechambered to .50-140, switched back to duplex loads and never experienced the ringing again.

Others may do what they wish but I will not load non-compressed loads with any wads again.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #11 - Feb 9th, 2006 at 7:08pm
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Joe, if you're not convinced then that appears to be your problem & we probably can't help. But I gotta say that you somewhat undermined yourself with your inclusion of the Ed Landers speculation, which in my mind indicates that he mighta had too much to drink that day or got confused on his meds. No personal disrespect meant, I'm sure he was a fine man but his speculation was pure hogwash IMO.

Seems to me that this is kinda like the question of blowups with reduced loads of slow-burning powders in large cases. No, they won't necessarily blow up every time, or even very often, but they DO blow up and it DOES happen under the specified conditions at least some of the time.

Just like the ringing with the Dacron wads.

So I encourage you to go ahead & keep using the Dacron wads, but don't expect a whole lotta support from this forum's pespective. Or a whole lotta sympathy either if you're unlucky enough to have a ring happen to you.
Good luck, you may need it, Joe
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #12 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 6:20am
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[quote author=Voyageur link=board=gd;num=1139315421;start=0#10 date=02/09/06 at 12:58:01]
"I was next to a gentleman who ringed his 1917 Colt .45 Auto Rim firing old ammo in double action rapid fire."

I watched a friend do that with a Colt New Service in 45 Colt. He ended up with 6 bullets in the barrel.


"I have experienced one example of ringing in a rifle that I built myself.  The rifle was a Falling Block, the barrel was a 32" octagon chome-molly blank.  I chambered the rifle in .50-90, used 450 grain bullets and test fired it a number of times at the range with duplex blackpowder (Goex Cart & 4759)... no problem.

I switched to Accurate Arms 5744 and a Wonder Wad and ringed the chamber badly on the first shot.

I rechambered to .50-140, switched back to duplex loads and never experienced the ringing again."

Thank you, that is just what I'm looking for, first hand experiences. 
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #13 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 6:27am
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Quote:
Joe, if you're not convinced then that appears to be your problem & we probably can't help. But I gotta say that you somewhat undermined yourself with your inclusion of the Ed Landers speculation, which in my mind indicates that he mighta had too much to drink that day or got confused on his meds. No personal disrespect meant, I'm sure he was a fine man but his speculation was pure hogwash IMO.

Seems to me that this is kinda like the question of blowups with reduced loads of slow-burning powders in large cases. No, they won't necessarily blow up every time, or even very often, but they DO blow up and it DOES happen under the specified conditions at least some of the time.

Just like the ringing with the Dacron wads.

So I encourage you to go ahead & keep using the Dacron wads, but don't expect a whole lotta support from this forum's pespective. Or a whole lotta sympathy either if you're unlucky enough to have a ring happen to you.
Good luck, you may need it, Joe


I wonder why you're so defensive. Remember, the mind is like a parachute, and works best when the strings aren't tangled!
As to the SEE events you mention, I think I'm about to cast a lot of doubt on these, as a result of some extensive research and data collection.
Here's the only other response to date. Where are those Dacron ring stories?

"I was using a .303 (No1 MkIII* Lithgow made 1942) with 9 gr of 7625 powder and a grape sized wad of 100% pure cotton and a LEE 180 gr gas checked bullet. No problems with several hundred shots. I increased the load gradually over a few weeks shooting to 11gr. After about 3 shots of the 11gr load, extraction became hard and I noticed a ring in the neck of the case and a corresponding ring in the chamber neck. My thoughts were that the 11gr of 7625 was too fast and too much and the flat surface of the powder (held as such by the wad) made a very fast pressure spike which was hitting the bullet base and making a ring bulge in the neck. I still use the same barrel with 18 gr H4198 and no problems with extraction, even though the ring is still there." Kim W on the Jouster Cast Bullet Forum
  
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Shooter
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Re: Chamber Ringing
Reply #14 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 8:44am
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I have read much on chamber ringing, but tell me please; will a chamber ring increase to the point the gun fails? 
Is chamber ringing cosmetic, or cause hard extraction, or a real danger to life and limb.
Best,
Mike
Central Va.
  
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