Old-Win:   Hi Bob, glad you joined in this discussion.  You have raised some very interesting issues, at least for me.  Talking about hard fowling 4-5" in front of the chamber, you ask if the wad cange and addition of 3 gr swiss could make a unbalanced load.  I have seen this hard fowling on several occassions myself while developing loads.  In almost every case its where I have increased powder charge. Using Swiss, every time I go from 85-86 grains up to 88-89 grains I seem to get more and harder fowling near the chamber.  I do not think it is wad related.  I think its more a compression related issue.   In your example of changing wad thickness and adding powder I believe you actually increased compression an additional .030 overall.  You don't mention how much compression you have with the old load, but if its say .300 then the 10% could/might be significant.  If its .100 compression and you add .030 that's real significant...33%   Every time I drop back to the 85-86gr load the hard fowling goes away.  I guess for whatever reason this is a more ballanced load (what ever that is) for me.   If I were you I'd  just try a .030 LDPE wad in that same load just to prove to yourself its not really the wad.  Then I'd shoot the old and new load side by side and compare the fowling.  As for accuracy, I'd take the one with the less fowling period.  No matter how much you blow tube, I don't think you can keep up with it once it gets away form you.     Next your lube smear at 200yds is interesting.  I am of the opinion that if lube is sticking and flinging off the bullet in the first 200 +yds, then we probally need to change the lube.  I think slinging lube can and does cause or adds to the problem of unstable bullets and wind deflection.  I think this becomes most critical when we are shooting Creedmoor distance targets, as it does'nt take much to open the MOA up  at that distance, and the first 200 yds or so is darn critical..   You mention the bullet hit was still in the "group", but if you don't know exactly where I';d assume it was one of the outside edge shots of the group.  You don't state your group size but you could extrapolate from center group, the worst case shot, and then apply this to what would that shot have been moved at 1000 yds.  I love those 6's at Lodi, cause its still a hit, but I hate those 6"s when it could have been a 10.    Now re: your shooting partner, who's lube melted off in the chamber.  I've observed this condition also with at least three commercial products and several home brew products, when the barrel was very hot and/or when the outside temp was quite high.  I've tested several lubes  to see how fast they glisten up and start to melt, just sitting in the hot summer sun.  Its amazing how fast they actually start to puddle. So which is better one that melts fast and liquifies quickly, and surly slings off the bullet much faster outside the muzzel or one like maybe your lube, which some portion is off and some portion is on the bullet?   Obviously we need fairly high melt point, soft and not sticky ingredieants.  Along with this I still believe that the ingredieants in and of them selves have to be such that they actually provide a lubricity factor. And  then again the keeping the fowling soft aspect with the induction of moisture with the tube I'll call it the "soap" factor.   Sounds like a monumental task the holy Grail if you will, but I believe bottom line there are a combinataion of "modern" synthetic products when properly combined that can accomplish at least most of this.  This is the direction I'm headed for lube.  Now just a comment for Feather.  As long as the rules are observed as in LDPE wads or synthetic lubes, or driving to the range in your new truck, you are limiting the development areas for your shooting with the strictly traditional approach. PS how long does it take you to get to the range on the horse?   Its great for you and I applaud it.  I'm just trying to get past the horse and wagon.   Bob as you said so much to ponder!!!!   Best regards steve witt

  Bob,

  I'm not your man but maybe a math whiz on here could tell you what amount of lube you would have with different types of lube grooves and then you would be able to go from there. It would seem to me that all you would need is the width, depth, and outer circumference of the bullet and the volume could be figured out.

  Possibly even the mould maker could figure this for you since they have to be able to take a drawing, or whatever, of what you want and figure out what the diam. will be out of the alloy you want to use.

PETE

Old-Win,
Something to think about, when you talk of smaller grease grooves.  If your luble hangs onto the grease grooves in your current bullet, would it not be able to hang onto a narrower groove even better?  Maybe wider grooves would get rid of the lube quicker.
Keep on hav'n fun!

Steve:  You're probably right on the lube grooves, but it's something that might be worth trying in a new bullet mould.  Like I really need another one.   On a serious note, do you stop and wipe periodically during a long range match and then pre-condition with ballistol for the next shot or two or do you shoot your entire string without wiping?  I've only attended one Lodi match but plan on making it a bi-annual event if I can.  I need to know every secret you guys are using so the gap between us doesn't get any bigger. 8) There were some fantastic scores shot at the spring match but heard the weather took its toll this fall.

Old-Win & Steve,

  Personally I think if you want the lube to come off the bullet on exit you'll have to go to a very hard lube that is only held on the bullet by it's being a band around it and not really adhering to tightly. Considering the rotational force imparted to the bullet it seems any relatively soft lube wouldn't stay on the bullet either. Yet some residue seems to. Thus our seeing it on targets at varying ranges.

  I believe it's centrifigal force that mainly applies the lube to the bore, so the hardness of the lube wouldn't make any difference as long as it did it's job. Something on the hardness of a crayon comes to mind.

  This might be what feather is trying out as he mentions having to use a heat source to apply his lube.

  I would also doubt whether there is enuf lube applied to really soften the fouling, so all the lube would have to do is prevent Leading.

  I wonder tho about any stability factors coming into question. I could see this if we were talking smoothbores but the main job of rifling is to provide the spin that evens out any internal imperfections by rotating them fast enuf they balance themselves out. Of course to much off wgt. balance would throw the bullet off. But, as Mann showed you can pretty well ding a nose up, which would throw it off balance, and not lose accuracy. At least at the distances he did his testing at.

  But, if you take into account what Steve said about his thinking how much lube stayed on the bullet it's a very small percentage of the bullets wgt. (considering a 525 gr. bullet) Many Shilouette shooters are using bullet wgt. variations of 2 or 3 grs., and I've read where 5 grs. is not uncommon, so it would seem that the small amount of lube left would not add appreciably to the problem even if most of the lube stayed on. In fact this would very probably be lost in the "soup" of other conditions.

  Are we tilting at windmills here?

PETE

Feather:  Very interesting point.  I never thought about the target backer.  It is 1/2" plywood.  It maybe possible that when the bullet impacts something that hard that the lube would fly out. I'm thinking if that is the case though that I would see it more often and around the bullet hole in several directions.

Pete:  I probably am looking at this whole issue too much and alluded to such in my initial post.  The lube slinging may not even be an issue because of the rotational forces on the bullet.  I've been wondering about it though and trying to relate it to Schuetzen accuracy.  It seems as though when bore diameters get above .38 cal, the accuracy drops off.  I'm sure that a lot of it is due to the special built purpose of  Schuetzen rifles and shooting them from extremely solid rests and even recoil that the shooter is thinking about when he pulls the trigger.  I'm sure you have lots more ideas why accuracy drops off.  But an inch at a 100yds is ten at a 1000.   Also, an unstable bullet at those distances doesn't lead to many 10's.  Have a good day.  Bob

Pete: I think your estimate that "many" silhouette shooters shoot bullets of 2-3 grain variation and that its not uncommon to shoot 5 grain variation bullets is not to my way of thinking.  I don't have any idea the norm for bullet weight variation for Schutzen, but I'd guess very few would should matches with this kind of variation in their bullets.   For me anyway the most I'll go to a match with is + or - .5 gr, and thats probally too much, especially when you get to the ram line at 500M.  Now compared to the 1000Y target the 500M is a chip shot, but in no case are you going to be very consistantly successful shooting bullets that vary as much as 2-5 grains.  I don't know if the lube hanging on the bullet is really that serious, but its just one of those things I'm going to work toward eliminating so I can sleep better at night.  Trouble is I still have not come to grips as to how to do it. 

Bob: I wish I had some of those secrets to share, the more I think I know the more it really is apparent I don't know.  Anyway you asked if re: Lodi LR if I stop and periodically wipe and then pre lube againand keep going.  No, I only prelube for the first 2 to 3 shots to keep the first shots in the group. And this even for the sighters and spotters.  Then I start the match with what I call a stablized bore (thats some consistant ammount of fowling that seems to be able to be held for 10 or so shots) from that point on I probally would be trying to control things with the blow tube the whole rest of the way. Counting sighters and spotters I can usually go 10 to 12 shots comfortably with the tube, but much past that you better be paying close attention..  If at any time it starts going away, depending on the days conditions, I usually will simply brush the the barrel up and back with a brass bristle and push out some excess fowling and then tube it and keep going. This method seems to get me back near to the "stabilized bore"  Seems to work pretty well. But as the barrel gets hotter and hotter it goes away much faster, and you may have to brush more and sooner.  At a Buffalo shoot, I don't have time to blow tube.  I shoot 5 maybe 6 shots, depending on the conditions of the day, and dry brush the bore up and back and up and back and start fireing away for 5 more shots, then do it again and again till finished with the set of 25.  Works pretty good for this type match, as the distances are not all that far and some loss of accuracy is tolerable, given the time constraints for the match.  I am of the opinion that we are being silly not to wet patch and dry the bore each shot for the LR as there is plenty of time to do it, but I just can't seem to break some old bad habits...."Ultimate Lube" is on its way, just not born yet 
Best regards steve witt    

Steve,

  My comments on what the Shilouette shooters use as a bullet wgt. spread are just what I've read on the Forums. From that reading it seems as tho 1 or 2 grs. variation is considered no big deal. If your experience with talking to other Shilouette shooters is different than that, then I stand corrected.

  You're right about Schuetzen shooters not taking this cavalier attitude toward their bullets. There are at least two schools of thoughts on what's exceptable for selecting your bullets.

  The first feel confident enuf in their casting technique that they will shoot their bullets in the order they cast them. They figure the slight differences you notice in wgt. from the start to finish of a session is addressed in this manner.

  The second method is the one I follow. After casting up a lot of bullets I will weigh them all out in one tenth grain increments. Needless to say all visually imperfect ones get tossed. When all weighed out I will establish a range of wgt.'s for that lot where 90% of the bullets fall into it and those outside this range are either thrown back in the pot or used as foulers even if they look good. The + or - I use for 525 gr. bullets, to give you an idea that you can relate to, is one grain. For the 200 gr. .32/40 the + or - is two tenths of a grain. Smaller calibers have tighter ranges.  I will then shoot this lot, in order, from lightest to heaviest. In that way there will be no group that the bullet varies more than a tenth grain. I do it this way shooting Schuetzen and did it this way when I shot the Buffalo match. 

  As you can see I can get pretty anal on what I consider a good bullet, and this carries over to everything else I do in shooting. As I tell the people I'm showing how to go about all this correctly...... "If you learn nothing else from me learn to do everything in a consistent manner." Everything means just that. Everything! This is the hardest thing to get into peoples heads.

  So, altho there are probably people who do think, and use, bullets with up to 5 grs. variation, I'll bet they aren't in the winners circle to often either. Winners sweat the details!

  Had to laugh at your comment to Bob about the more you learned the more you found out you had more to learn. So true!

PETE