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dick_norton
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Throating question
Nov 10th, 2005 at 7:30am
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I have acquired a rifle with a Badger barrel. The maker will remain unnamed. For the past couple of months I've tried a combinations of powder, lubes, primers, etc., but a stringing problem cannot be eliminated. (Believe me, the combinations I've used are extensive) The rifle strings it's shots about 3" at two hundred yards. From time to time, it will drop a shot even more. Bullets are not tipping. Bullets have been weighted and visually inspected. When testing, conditions are perfect. Seating the bullet the conventional 1/16 ahead of the case the rifling engraves only about halfway down and appears to be taped slightly. Seating the bullet out to over .300 brings the engraving lightly into the base band. However, the stringing continues. 

Four other schuetzen rifles I've used had a throat cut that let the rifling engrave to full depth just short of the bullet base.

Horizontal dispersion is often only a 1/2". I've tested expanding case mouths so that a firm "push fit" is needed to chamber. 

Comments?

Dick
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Throating question
Reply #1 - Nov 10th, 2005 at 8:13am
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You don't tell us much about the rifle. Is there a fly in the hammer? a bad fly will give you stringing.  if it is a Highwall that comes to full cock I would grind out the half cock notch and lose the fly. That has cured a stringing problem for me.

40 Rod
  
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dick_norton
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Re: Throating question
Reply #2 - Nov 10th, 2005 at 8:53am
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Interesting, the rifle has only been shot about 1,500 times. I'll check.

Dick
  
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PETE
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Re: Throating question
Reply #3 - Nov 11th, 2005 at 9:28am
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Dick,

  A seating depth of 1/16" is just a nominal depth to seat the bullet. I'd try seating it out further.

  From your description it sounds like the rifle has a very long throat/Leade in it. Freebore as some call it. Not being able to seat the bullet out might be causing a partial gas leak which would vary the MV enuf to cause vertical stringing.

  The fact that the bullet isn't engraving like a "normal" Schuetzen bullet should does not necessarily mean that's the problem. You really need to do a chamber cast so you can size your bullets to fit that throat. For shooting cast bullets in military guns it's pretty well standard practice to size the bullets to fit the throat. A good example would be my 03 Springfield. It has a .301 bore, a .3085 groove, and a Leade of .311. I size .311. Don't know if you've tried this angle but if not it's worth a try to.

  You don't mention the caliber, or bullet wgt. you're trying in it. You mention it having 1500 rds. thru it. So was the gun possibly used for another venue of shooting, like Shilouette, or Long Range? Some of those shooters deliberately have longer throats put in so that they can seat their bullets out further to increase powder capacity.

  If this is the case, and sizing to fit the Leade, or seating the bullet out further doesn't help your only course might be to have the barrel set back, or a new one put on.

PETE
  
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mes
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Re: Throating question
Reply #4 - Nov 11th, 2005 at 11:45am
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Dick
<<<<<From Petes Post>>>>From your description it sounds like the rifle has a very long throat/Leade in it. Freebore as some call it. Not being able to seat the bullet out might be causing a partial gas leak which would vary the MV enuf to cause vertical stringing. >>>

If Pete is right about the base being undersize a way to bump the base up a couple of thou in diameter is to tumble the bullets in something like a thumlers tumbler with hardened bb's in the tumbler.  I have this setup for peening moly into jacketed bullets.  It will also do cast bullets.  When I moly coated cast bullets there was always a ring around the base of the bullet like the pressure ring at the base of custom jacketed bullets.  I assumed that the bullets always fell base first in the tumbler and the ring formed after an hour  or two of tumbling.
mes
  

Martin Stenback
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dick_norton
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Re: Throating question
Reply #5 - Nov 11th, 2005 at 12:41pm
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Pete, Marty, thanks for the suggestions. Took the rifle back out yesterday and bumped the powder charge up to 16 grs. 4227, at the edge of safey (33-47, 248gr. bullet) but no real improvement. I've owned and operated 4 single shots in the past. In each case the bullet was seated just ahead of the case and the rifling engraved halfway into the base band. All of these rifles were competitive as to accuracy. I seated this bullet out to the extreme of the seater, .380 and it still strung the shots. The bullets mike "good" but I've sent sample to the maker. I am thinking that the barrel must be re-throated for starters. Let that bullet engrave deeply into the base band. What I'm not going to do considering the money involved to date is chase my tail, hopefully. As a sanity check took out a CPA in .32-40 this am, fired 14 shots with a mix of bullets to include 3 I borrowed 2 years ago from Chuck Blender, hand lubed 2 with a stick of what I think is 20 year old Dell 59, and all of the shots went in 2.45 !

Dick
  
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PETE
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Re: Throating question
Reply #6 - Nov 11th, 2005 at 6:09pm
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Dick,

  Your idea of seating the bullet out so it engraves the base band is right on in my opinion. I usually set the seater up so about half the base band is engrave.

  So, you went out .380" and it still didn't engrave the base band? You're not clear on this.

  I would definitely say you've got a long throat!  Grin

  I'd go out until I got the required engraving on the base band and see what happens. Remember, the old time muzzle/breech loaders would have to adjust their loading rods as the bore wore in order to keep the bullet from falling out. I've read of instances of this being 1/2" ahead of the chamber.

  The further out you go tho you might have to adjust the powder charge up a bit to take into account the added "chamber" and consequent reduction in pressure.

PETE
  
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dick_norton
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Re: Throating question
Reply #7 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 7:16am
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Pete, .380 is right. This is the length the bullet must be seated ahead of the case to have the rifling engrave almost to the bullets base. The problem is that the seating position has created another cartridge!. As has been demonstrated, the smaller capacity case, i.e., .32 Miller Short, etc, are setting the standards for accuracy. But in this rifle a compressed load of Swiss 1.5 still exhibited a stringing problem.

Dick
  
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PETE
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Re: Throating question
Reply #8 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 8:47am
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Dick,

  I think it's time you were a little more clearer on what exactly you've got.  Caliber, twist rate, bullet wgt., powder you're using, etc.

  Are you saying the rifle is chambered for a .32 Miller Short, or were you using this as an example? If it's chambered for one of the "modern" Schuetzen cases then you'll never get enuf black powder into it to have any accuracy at all. Cases the size of the .32 Miller Short are strictly a smokeless powder item.

  If this is the case it would be a miracle if you weren't getting vertical stringing. In fact I would be surprised if you're getting a 1000 fps.

  So. Please! Fill us in on exactly what you've got and what you plan on doing with it.

PETE
  
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coolhd
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Re: Throating question
Reply #9 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 9:02am
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Dick, you and I have talked about the "throating" problem in your rifle barrel.  I still think the answer is to make a chamber cast to include the throating to the rifling. Send that to a reputable mould maker and let them create a bullet that will fit.  Obviously, the present bullet is wrong and will never give you the accuracy you want.

As we talked about earlier, I have this same chambering with the same reamer in my rifle and the rifling barely engraves the base band on the bullet.  However, accuracy is much better than what you have gotten.  You have a Badger--I have a Ron Smith barrel.  I don't know if that has any bearing on the accuracy. I plan to do the chamber cast and have a bullet made that will fit to see if accuracy is any better.  I think it will be noticeable.

Pete, the cartridge is .33-47.  Wink

coolhd

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coolhd
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Re: Throating question
Reply #10 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 9:07am
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Dick & Pete:

I forgot to mention my bullet is a tapered style with the base band diameter being .339.  I think I need .340 to get a good seal.

coolhd 8)
  
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dick_norton
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Re: Throating question
Reply #11 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 3:01pm
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Jim, I just miked and examined under high magnification a bullet seated appx. 1/16 ahead of the case. The bullet is tapered and it engraves begining slightly ahead of the uppermost band where diameter is .335, as it should be. The engraving stops .315 above the bullet base. What we have here is a throat that is simply too long. Instead of chasing molds, chamber casts, etc., I'm just going to return the action and barrel and have it set back specifiing where I want the rifling to engrave to. Perhaps I could seat it out to the limit of the seater, try all sorts of powders, but we are really venturing into the unknown. Just consider how much more case capacity results from having a bullet .380 ahead of the case. Speaking of bullet diameters I found an old stubby Barnett bullet that after seating shows very tiny rim of lead around the base. As I recall it shot well. So I going back to basics. Now I'm a little concerned re: you noting that the .339 may not be large enough. Mine is the same and I note that it appears the bore not in contact between the engraving by the lands. Only testing will tell. 

Pete; the cartridge is called a 33-47.

Dick
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Throating question
Reply #12 - Dec 4th, 2005 at 5:43am
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My M54 Winchester 30WCF started throwing a shot low now and again. Testing showed the odd shot 3" to 10" low at 100 yards, before that I thought there were doubles or that they were in the group. 
I took the back mount off the 30X STS and cleaned everything, specially those "chinese character" stamped steel things; cleaned the tube with 0000 steel wool, put it together, and the low shots are gone. 
This is the first time in 40 years that one of these Lyman scopes went south on me. I'm figuring a burr or a bit of dirt or something.
Could it be your scope?
joe b.
  
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dick_norton
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Re: Throating question
Reply #13 - Dec 4th, 2005 at 1:34pm
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Good suggestion. I even used upward thumb pressure to be sure the scope had repositioned after each shot. The accuracy was not radically bad, though for bench rest is was a disaster, stringing shots a  minimum of 3" at 200 yards. The maker emailed me that they are working on it, I feel they found the throating less than desirable. I will clean my scope and mounts.

Dick
  
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