One of the differences between .22rf and .45 BPCR is the range - .22 ammo is optimized for 100m at most, with 50m being the point where accuracy has to be best.  Unfortunately, our BPCR's do have to deliver more....
Possibly the subsonic loads would deliver better groups under ideal circumstances, but the major problem is the increased bullet drop at longer ranges.  Even a load with better 
SD/ES's but subsonic might show more vertical than the 'fast' load because of the more curved bullet trajectory - and the vertical will kill you at longer ranges.
Mind you, there will be a range where the subsonic load will still have the advantage, but I'm betting that beyond a certain range, faster will be better.  And that point?  now, that's a good question....

Pete

I am not sure you want a load that will 'Reliabaly knock the Rams over" I would look for something that shoots tight verticly, They are only 2 1/2 MOA high, and you can shoot well

I have seen a whole lot of Rams hit and 100% is probably not acheavable with any load you can put to your sholder.

There are a lot of varables. At our range when it's wet the rams will get mud on them as re-set and it makes a big difference, Another conditon is wind blowing against the back of the ram. it will hold it up.

I started shooting HP Silouette with a 30/06 and a 190 gr match king at 2700 fps will not always knock over a low belly shot.

Of course we used to have a guy that shot a 6mmBR. We C Clamped a couple of Rams to the stands one time. (in Sight in relays) That little 6 was no match for the clamps. They did it to me once at a BPC match, My 38/55 won't break the clamp loose either

Boats

greetings all,

at 'our'velocities, the slower the bullet, the less it is affected by wind.. at hi-vel, the slower the bullet, the more it is affected.

spent a few hrs on the phone with the federal people talking about 22's. they say, and i believe it's true, 'sonic, sub-sonic or trans sonic makes no differance in accuracy.'.. 'if you have an accuracy problem, look at something other than velocity.'

i do believe chronographs have led many people down the wrong path as far as accuracy goes. like someone said, 'barrel harmonics' have a lot more to do with vertical spread than e. s... howsomever, if the bbl is out of tune, e. s. will excaberate the pblm.

one more thing to remember, the rams are not 'long range' they are at the long end of short range or the short end of mid-range. think of it like that and they will be easier to hit..

one more thing, this worked for me, once i get my dead on zero for a certain range, i never move my sights. i have the spotter tell me how far the miss was, then hold off on kentucky windage. for wind conditions the holdoff is estimated.

..ttfn..grampa..

Boats,

  As I've mentioned before...... MY aim is generally to find the most accurate load possible, and then look at other factors that might be required to shoot a match. As in the NCOWS Buffalo Match I found in order to shoot 25 rds. in under 10 minutes (ties broken by time) required that I had to sacrifice some accuracy in order to achieve it.

  This is why I asked the question on how much MV would be considered enuf for the Rams. I sure was glad to see my "main" load met the criteria. The rest will be up to me which I accept as part of the game. I've always felt that if you have to start out with an inferior load all you're doing is handicapping yourself, and that only helps the opposition.

  The 300 gr. bullet is a little different story. With increased compression I've found accuracy is down to a barely acceptable level (2" at 100 yds.)... my opinion. I'm not real happy with the three .060" wads I have to use to get it tho so am going to pursue another avenue.

  Altho I'm getting real good SD/ES's, the accuracy isn't what it should be, considering. Part of the problem is probably to short a bullet for the twist rate. My thinking is I might have to go with some neck tension...... none on the 417 gr. bullet and none so far with the 313 gr. one. So have some loads worked up for testing tomorrow. What's your thinking?

  Here's the really strange part. With both bullets the best load is the same 59.0 grs., but using Swiss 1 1/2 for the 417 and 1F Goex for the 313. MV's are very close to each other at around 1250 fps.

Quote:


  Until I figured this out it always amazed me that until the advent of smokeless powder it was felt bigger was better in hunting situations. Since BP can be pushed only so fast in order to get the necessary shocking power you need big, heavy bullets. "Express" loads had the MV but about half the accuracy so don't imagine they were considered anything more than short range propositions, and used the flatter trajectory to offset lack of skill in reading distances.

PETE

Boats,

  Man! You bring up a lot of interesting points. Some I agree with, and some not. Where to begin. 

  Every load I work up is throughly tested over several weeks at the least. Once I find out what works the best I don't usually change things either. But, I also keep my eye open for new ideas to try as I don't think I've learned it all and someone might just come up with something better. I won't switch tho unless a lot of shooting proves it out. Never go to a match with a load you're not sure of. It'll let you down every time. I don't know how many times I listened to a shooter who lost a match say he was trying out a new load and it just didn't work out for him.

  To me a chronograph is the ultimate shooters tool that is misunderstood by most. It has saved me untold hours, and a lot of money by showing me what works and what doesn't. We've all had those "killer" first groups when trying a new load that never seem to repeat. Yet if they'd have been run thru a chrono to begin with you'd have seen that they just wouldn't repeat. A chronograph doesn't tell you that a given load will be accurate, but if you have SD's over 10 for BP and 15 for smokeless you can scratch that from your list right away rather than to try shooting a bunch more.

  Neck pull is a whole book unto itself. From my experience the bigger calibers and heavy bullets seem to work best with very little or no neck tension. At the least I'll make up an expander plug that is bullet diam., and at most one that allows for a thumb press fit where the bullet can't be pulled out after pushed in. This will be my first experience with light bullets in a large caliber, so want to see what light tension will do.

  I haven't tried it in my .38/55 but Steve Garbe seems to think you need to crimp your bullet in for best accuracy. On "Fitz's" advice I tried it on my .32/40 this past Fall for the EDC match and it was amazing the way it tightened up the groups by a 1/3rd to 1/2.  So I have hopes for the 300 gr. .40.

  I'm not sure I get your idea on stabilization of the 300 gr. bullet? If the 417 gr. bullet, which is a 1/4" longer, stabilizes I can't see any reason why the 300 isn't stable. There could be such a thing as over stabilization. Dick Gunn seems to favor this idea, but I've never been a fan of it. I'll go along with the idea that having to much twist for a given bullet length will not give you optimum accuracy, but that's as far as I'll go.

  Making up long runs of ammo....... I'm lucky if I get my loads for tomorrow loaded up today.  But, it brings up an idea I've read about which seems to have some validity if a few experiments are to be believed. Namely, that bullets left in cases for any length of time seem to "weld" themselves to the sides of the cases. Seems to be more prevalent in cast bullets than jacketed. Some experiments I read about show that cartridges left set over longer and longer periods of time require more and more pressure to break them free than fresh loaded ones. It was suggested that if you load quite a few far in advance that before you go out shooting them that you set your seating die down a .001" or so and break the "weld" loose. The authors seemed to think this improved accuracy, or at least the consistency of that load. Since you make big runs of ammo what's your take on the idea?

PETE

Boats,


  Yeah! I guess we're not to far off.  Shucks! Thought we could get a good dis-cuss-ion going.


  A lot of people swear by 14.5 grs. of 4227 in a .32/40, but I've never found that to be the most accurate load in any of mine.  To me this is where a chrono comes in handy. You get the gun shooting real well with one lot, and then when you switch to another that load won't shoot well. Usually, but not always, if you know the MV you just run different loads over the chrono until you duplicate it. Saves a lot of long term re-testing.


Haven't tried 4759 in my .38/55 but in the .32/40 4227 works a lot better. Plus it has the advantage of metering very well when using the single case method in breech seating.


  I haven't tried the other powders you mention, and have only used Bullseye in my .45 for match shooting.


  I agree about the "Magic Load", but you also have to have confidence that it'll do well. 90% of shooting is between the ears. Also a good shooter with a mediocre load will beat a bad shooter with the best load in the world. 


The Greenhill Formula is ok, but you really need to use a constant of 125 or 130 to get better results. Actually there are several formulas that are better anymore.


  Stabilization...... I agree with you on this. I wish I could really say why a bullet to short for the twist will not do as well as one the right length. My .40 cal 417 gr. bullet is all I could ask for in accuracy, but the 313 grainer is becoming a problem. I read something recently on this which said that this type bullet should have more wgt. in the nose. In a tail heavy bullet a to fast twist seems cause the bullet to wobble more, and the wgt. needs to be forward to help stabilize it. The 313 is definitely tail heavy.


  Testing yesterday using neck tension was not good. Outstanding SD/ES's but groups were twice the size of those shot out of a thumb press fit load. Been using Win. cases and think today I'll start working with Rem.'s. Not sure where the problem is but I don't like having to add fillers or wading. The less capacity of the Rem.'s will allow me to start out at a lower MV, getting closer to your subsonic idea, and if I have to go to a higher load I can get more compression. Goex seems to need a lot of compression to work well but in Win. cases I'd need to add a 1/2" or better of wads or go to XXGrampa's idea of using fillers in order to get it..... don't like that if I can help it.


PETE

Feather,

  Good post and some food for further thought. Can't disagree with anything you've said.

  I'll agree that my alloy for the 313 gr. bullet might be to soft (1-25). It will definitely be something to try when I get around to fine tuning. I just started there because that alloy seems to work best in most rifles I own, and the 417 gr. bullet didn't like 1-20, or 1-30 at all. The good SD/ES's with poor accuracy does give cause to suspect the alloy is to soft.

  The bullets bearing surface is definitely a "Rock in a sock" as Dick Gunn likes to say, and I don't particularly like it as I feel for a light bullet for the caliber that the majority of wgt. should be forward of the center of form. What's your thinking on this?

  As I mentioned I was going to try switching from Win. cases to Rem.'s in order to try and get away from to many wads, or going to fillers, in order to get what I perceived might be a lack of compression.

  Well, it worked, altho some interesting things came up. Nothings cast in stone since I only shot 5 shot groups and the way the weather looks it'll be next Spring before I can do some extended shooting to be sure things weren't a fluke.

  The interesting things were that for 3 grs. less powder I got the same MV's from the Rem. cases, as with the Win.'s, and the same MV as the best 417 gr. bullet load. Around 1250 fps for all the best loads. Accuracy was on the same order as for the 417 gr. bullet. 1 1/2" at 100 yds. Apparently this MV range is where my rifle likes to shoot it's best. Seems rather strange considering the bullet wgt.'s involved, but...... The other thing of note was that the best Rem. load shot noticeably cleaner than than the best load from the Win. cases. Probably a no brainer since less powder was involved.

  Primers---- I've been using WLR's during all my testing so far Never been a Mag. primer fan. I hear you about the double bullet jump if the primer is to powerful. I did do some testing with .002" neck tension with the 313 gr. bullet, and altho I did get slightly better SD/ES's the groups for the same range of powder charges (58 grs. to 62 grs.) ran a 1/3rd to double the size of those with a thumb press fit.

  So what would be your take on switching to LP primers with that in mind? I'll certainly try them to see what happens. I just didn't think they would be the thing for 1F in that large a powder charge. Interesting thought tho.

  Ramblings of an idle mind -----  I would think if a loose neck tension gave better accuracy than loads with neck tension that if there was a double jump the neck tensioned bullets would show better accuracy. I do seat my bullets to touch the rifling, altho they aren't a "press in" fit.

  Very interesting comment on MLV's pressure testing. I AM surprised at the 1F having higher pressure but less MV. The MV I can see but the pressure seems strange. Don't doubt it. Just strange!

  I'll certainly agree that 1F is probably not optimal for light bullets. But, I've also read where the old timers used 1F almost exclusively in all their reloading in calibers ranging from .25 cal. right on up to the .50/90's. Possibly their 1F had a faster burning rate than ours. But, my reason for using 1F was because I figured for a given wgt. of powder it was going to take up more space in the case. There is more than enuf to drive the 317 gr. bullet fast enuf for accuracy and knock down power on the Chickens. This is also the reason for switching to Rem. cases. Get a full case of powder with a wad between the bullet and powder and get some compression.

  Compression ---- Right now, with the Rem. cases I'm only getting .040" compression using a .060" Walters wad. Cartridge OAL is 2.818". I don't particularly like this little as this lot of 1F likes about .170" in my .50/90, and I read where others feel about .250" is better. Of course this might be comparing apples to oranges to.  The way I'm working up the load for the 317 grainer is not how I like to work up BP loads, so I'm not altogether comfortable with how I'm going about it. What's your take on this, and how would you go about it?

  Nuts! I figured the .50/90 would throw that Ram off the rail with ease. Oh Well! Another myth deflated. 

PETE