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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) lighter weight "chicken" bullet (Read 80305 times)
bluesteel45
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lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Oct 26th, 2005 at 10:20pm
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ok guys, thinking of working up a new "chicken" load in my highwall 45-70, so i don't have to keep pouring 530-550 grain stuff unecessarily to the 200 meter distance. i'm figuring a little more economy of lead is in order here. anybody having much success with .45 cal.  diameter bullets in the 430 to 480 grain range??? who knows, might even pull acceptable duty on pigs at 300 meters????if so, which ones are you using??? could even push velocities to the 1200-1300 fps. range. i know they make moulds for these weight ranges, but don't have any feedback on who's using them and how successfully...at least as far as b.p.c.r. sillouette  shooting is concerned....any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated......many thanks....blue ???
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #1 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 10:36pm
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Blue, I have had only limited experience with the BPCS shooting game, but I did like the results I got when I took the old standard 405 gr flat nose Ideal bullet #457193 and crammed it into a case full of ctg black along with a felt wad (Ox-Yoke Wonder wad, I believe.)  For chickens at 200 and the pigs as well, it never failed to satisfy if I did my part on the stock, sights and trigger.  YMMV, but it may be worth a try for you.

Froggie

PS  FWIW, I was using a (.45-70 rebarreled) original high-wall for shooting these rounds.  GF
  
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bluesteel45
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #2 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 10:43pm
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thanks for the quick reply green frog. i may give that a try. what kind of accuracy were you realizing with that combo???? what kind of velocity???........ oh, b.t.w...great choice of action......blue Wink
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #3 - Oct 27th, 2005 at 12:01am
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Beats the heck out of me!  Grin  I just threw them together on a whim when I got ready to shoot a BPCS match on a weekend when there was no schuetzen match available.  That was a mould I had used for some smokeless loads and I got as good accuracy as I could hold (minute of backstop or better. Wink )  It really seemed at 200 that they were staying on the chickens when I did my part.  In fact, I was even able to bag a couple of turkeys and rams with them...if the animal was hit at all, it went down.

Velocity?  Isn't that some weird kind of bicycle?  Roll Eyes

In reponse to your BTW, I was 35 before I knew that high-wall and single shot rifle were not the only way to write a sentence about fine shooting...and when all else fails, I still go back to that. It's still my default setting.  Grin

Froggie
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #4 - Oct 27th, 2005 at 9:04am
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Blue,

I use a .405 grain flatpoint RCBS mould, that has had the gas check bored out, for chicken duty.  It came with another rifle (a light-barreled Browning 1885), and I decided to try it for chickens, and it shoots pretty well, even though I haven't done much load development...really just a case full (60 grains) of 2F Schuetzen and Federal 150M primers, and a .060 LDP wad.  Shoots pretty consistent 2" groups at 100 yds, and has accounted for 5/10 chickens a few times this season, when the shakes aren't too bad!  I also used this boolit to fireform a bunch of new brass, and it seemed to hold together on the pig swinger I was shooting at...would probably work fine out to there, at least, with a bit more work.

Greg
  
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #5 - Oct 27th, 2005 at 9:39pm
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Paul Jones has a 410gr., bullet #45011, chicken killer.  I know how much your rifle likes his 45001 creedmoor.
  
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #6 - Oct 28th, 2005 at 7:33am
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Blue

405 grs is about the lightest bullet that will perform well in a 45/70 with Black powder.  I shoot lighter ones sometimes but only with smokeless and even then you have  to use fast pistol powders to get complete ignition.   

There are lots of good stock mold 405's avalable

I would start with the standard goverment carbine bullet and loads from Wolf's book on Trapdoor loading.  Using his load and that bullet  I have shot my Cadet Trapdoor over the course to 1000 yards. I won't say it's the best for long range but considering recoil and the somewhat lighter Cadet rife it works OK.  Silouette is a mid range game and at 600 on paper it was fine.  Using Lymans Cast Bullet handbook tables I see the difference in drift with a 5 mph wind at 500yds 400gr vs 500 gr is 3/4 of one inch.

As long as you can get accucary with a 400 for BPCS I see no reason it would not do well for anything except Rams.

I shot High power Silouette for years and in a 7mm08 only used the 168 gr match bullets for Rams, all other critters I used a 139 gr boat tail.  No reason to get beat up with recoil unless the target requires it.

Boats
  
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PETE
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #7 - Oct 28th, 2005 at 9:14pm
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boats,

  Very interesting! I'm gonna be shooting my very first Shilouette match next Summer and have been wondering about this very thing.

  Do you have any idea what would be a good "light" bullet to use in the .40/65? I have a Browning BPCR. The "big" one I'm working with right now is the RCBS 40-400-CS which weighs in at 417 grs. in 1-25. Two accuracy loads I have so far have a MV of 1225 & 1245 fps. Neither is to bad on recoil but would be nice to use something a bit lighter for the chickens, at least, and possibly everything else besides the Rams.

  Which brings up another question. What would be a good MV to use that would be good for the Rams. From what I read in Garbe & Venterino's manual it seems to be a LOT different than what I read on MSN's BPCR.

  Some of the guys around here that shoot Shilouette say you have to use 59 or 60 grs. of 1 1/2 Swiss in that caliber. This seems to be bourne out by those using less not doing to well on the Rams. Could be their shooting ability to so it gets a little confusing.

PETE
  
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rk4570
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 4:31pm
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I am also working on a chicken load after talking with Steve Brooks at the Oregon State Sillouette match in Sept. I noticed he was shooting a lighter bullet (410 gr.) seated very deep in the case and I asked him what he was shooting. He was using a round nose bullet with a FILLER & about 45.0 gr. of 2f. Soooo since he just happened to have that mould with him I bought it but have not had the time to shoot it yet.
I also shoot 200yd. paper matches here in Ore. & cant wait to try this combo. I hope to hear more on this Lite Load from the rest of you!!  Smiley
  
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #9 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 5:20pm
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Blue

On the 405's I never shot Silouette with my Trapdoors, Just over the course paper targets.  The Goverment Carbine and Cadet rifle load did not have any fillers. 59 grs of 2 F Black compressed . Wolf Says it gives 1220-1240 fps. It's a bit shorter overall than the 500 gr rifle load.  It's no creampuff and is very suitable out to 400 yards or longer for paper targets. For Rams I doubt if it hits as hard as a 38 cal lighter bullet due to the BC of the bullet.  I would buy Wolfs book for sure if you want to work with 45/70's. He has lots of intresting loads.

Pete, I never worked with a 40 cal but it is no doubt the cartridge of choice for BPCS.

The BPCS I shot was with a CPA in 38/55  My theory was it's more important to hit the Rams than it is to make sure all stuck fall over. At the AA or even AAA level that is. Top level shooters can't afford to let any go and need the larger cartridges for insurance.  Missed critters cost the same as hit not toppled and mid level shooters like me miss plenty. 

I gave the Black powder game up for Schuetzen and now only shoot Silouette with modern rifles.  I like offhand and the BPCS game is realy a prone match.  At mid skill level most shooters give up the chickens completly.  If you can hit the Chickens you will have a very strong advantage over most people. The pigs are easy and the Turkeys and Rams are a team shooter/spotter leg. If you can hold hard and adjust your sights as told the spotter will put you on them.

That's all I know about it.

Boats

  
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PETE
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #10 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 7:19pm
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Boats,

  Thanks for the reply. You have brought up some interesting points and maybe someone else can fill in some of the rest.

  I don't expect to give the top shooters around here the shakes, as I'll have to shoot from the sitting position. From what I hear the match people won't let you shoot on their range other than match days so the first match will have to be more getting sight settings. Computer programs can only take you so far and the farther out you have to shoot the less effective they are, other than to get you close. Since they are only holding three matches next year I don't think I'll give up Schuetzen any time soon! Just want to try it. Never met a shooting venue I didn't like.

  Having shot my share of offhand I feel a lighter bullet/load would be much more effective than using a heavier one for those chickens. In fact, if a guy could, I'd shoot them with my .32/40, and use the .40 for everything else.  Grin

PETE
  
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #11 - Oct 31st, 2005 at 8:34am
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Pete

I have sighted in on match day and as match official at our club have watched plenty of people do it. It's pretty rushed and you are not likely to get good sights. It only works when you have an experenced spotter/shooter combanation working together.  I have had a lot to say about the shooter spotter combination, Years ago I put an article in one of the mags about it that caused some comment. Not all complemtery.

To tell you the truith it's why I gave the sport up for Schuetzen. My schuedle and match locations does not allow a fixed partner and pick up spotters are way less than worthless "WOW you missed that one"   Schuetzen is individual 100 %

High power I have a couple of guys I work with and Small bore it's not as important.  But I will tell you this. Small bore the only target I have not picked up a 10 in a row pin is Rams. And I am convinced a good spotter would have put me on them at times.

for sights what I have for both HighPower/BPCS and Smallbore silouettes is a set of stencils for all the Critters actual size.  I's not hard to set some up. Just lay the actual target on a piece of cardboard and spray paint the outside edge.  Then at home jigsaw tha pattern onto some hardboard or plywood.

Then I spray paint the actual sized target on old cardboard boxes.  A big TV or appliance box for the rams and smaller boxes for the rest.   Put some dirt in the bottom and set them up at match distance You have a life like target with a muted background just like at the actual match. And more important it shows holes so you can play with the sight settings etc.   

BPCS is a great sport it just did not suit my situation.

Boats
  
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PETE
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #12 - Oct 31st, 2005 at 10:27am
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boats,

  My personal opinion on spotters is that they should be given the same prize as the shooter. Or, split it if it's a cash award. Seems I recall reading somewhere an article dealing with this subject. Possibly yours. Would you care to refresh my memory?

  My buddy and I have shot together for going on 40 yrs. or so and we're going to spot for each other. We both know what each other means when we call for sight adjustments. Otherwise I'd pass on shooting it altogether.

  I went up and observed one of the first matches held and I'll sure agree with you that most spotters don't seem to have a clue. I think I heard about the same thing as you mention. My favorite was "You missed that by about a foot", leaving the poor shooter to ask which side and then try to figure how many points that would be for the particular target they were shooting at. If he'd of pulled that on me we'd have had words!

  Been so long since I've shot .22 Shilouettes that I can't remember whether you are allowed a spotter. None of us used one if it was allowed. Well, you're one up on me.  Grin I've only got the chicken and pig pins. Came awfully close a few times on the turkeys and rams but no cigar.

  Good idea about using cardboard boxes and painting targets on them. I just got tired of doing that for .22's so got a set of swingers that worked real well to.

  Well, since I didn't get any more responses for a chicken bullet/load I ordered the RCBS 40-300-CSA from BA this morning. It has the same nose shape as the 40-400-CS I have which is really accurate, so am hoping the 300 will be the same.

PETE
  
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #13 - Oct 31st, 2005 at 11:06am
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Pete;
I have been on the road thru most of this discussion so I really could not reply in a timely manner.

Your choice of a 300 gr RCBS should work well for you. When I bought my first BPCR, a '75 C.Sharps in 40/65 I really wanted to "smell some smoke". The only mould available from my local supplier was the RCBS. I bought it and my first group out of the rifle at 100 yards was just under an inch! I upset a couple of "old timers" who were watching. Apparently, they had NEVER had such a tight group with BP. Grin Here I come and the first thing out of the box was a "winner". I can't take a great deal of credit, I had purchased Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe's book, "The BPCR Primer" and just did what they suggested. Couldn't miss! Roll Eyes

At any rate, I shot this "little" bullet until I got my heavier bullet mould. Frankly, for the chickens and pigs you could not ask for better results. They also did reasonably well on the turkeys but somewhere between the turkeys and the rams they "went astray". If I were required to use them for both the chickens and the pigs I doubt that I would suffer much. If your rifle likes the 300's as much as mine did, you should do fine on the chickens. The recoil is noticeably less, by the way.

Good luck!
Dale53
  
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Re: lighter weight "chicken" bullet
Reply #14 - Oct 31st, 2005 at 5:12pm
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Pete

It might have been mine, it was a long time ago in BPCNews

The jist if it is the Spotter and shooter have to talk the same language.  MOA is whats universial.  If the spotter tells the shooter to " Add 2moa" The shooter needs to know how to do it right away without any errors.  You can't use different terms to mean the same thing  "bring it up 2mo" or increase 2 moa" or 2 moa higher" or put 2 minutes on the sight"  can cause confusion.

It's very milatary, orders, not discussions or request. Like the manual of arms or in my case helm commands on a boat  You don't have time for back and forth and don't need any mistakes.  Only one person should be in charge of the bullets strike. Thats the spotter. The guy behind the gun should only adjust sights and hold center.  When you get it down pat it's like a dance one leads one follows.

One thing that used to drive me crazy when running matches was the guy that was sighting in and working his way up or down the sight staff One MOA at a time.   If you see a 5 foot high strike on rams it's 12 MOA too high and you might as well take all 12 minutes off the sight at one time.

There are things that are hard to spot. A common one is the berm back a long way from the target and a high trajectory BP bullet skimming over the back but throwing dirt under the belly since the strike is so far behind the critter. All of that takes experence.

Boats
  
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