Good morning, Board;

It's not fair.  Y'all started a really good thread while I was gone for a couple of weeks.  Now, I have to play catch up.

First to the light bullet thing.  I have used light bullets for chickens and pigs in both .45-70 and .40-65.  For the .45-70 I first tried the Lyman 325 (thereabouts).  With a full case of Goex 2Fg, I could not get good accuracy, but I did get excellent leading.  I then tried the same bullet with reduced charges (without wads) and got pretty good results, but it was sporatic.  It did best when I pointed the gun up and tapped the butt before each shot, but it still wasn't as consistent as I wanted.

Still following the same idea, I had mountain moulds make me a 408 grain bullet with the same length lube groove section as the SAECO 745 that I usually shoot.  Using a charge of Goex 2Fg that compressed about 0.125 inches, I got outstanding accuracy and reduced recoil both.  At the chickens it would group between two and three inches (off of sticks).

With this bullet at the pigs, I once hit 27 in a row and the 28th was my fault entirely.  The pigs fell over very well.

When Effie Bee tried shooting for a while, I built her a .40-65 and bought both the 300 and 400 grain RCBS moulds.  The idea was to let her learn on the 300 with reduced recoil.  I worked up a good load - something under two minutes - and let her shoot the entire match with it.

I didn't check the velocity of that load, but at the chickens, we got comments about how fast it must be going.  The arrival time was very quick.  This 300 gr bullet is said by some to have too little room for lube.  We shot it during cooler weather, but there was no leading at all with it.

To my surprise, every target she hit with it went down - including the rams.

When she decided not to shoot any longer, I just put the gun and load aside and didn't think anymore about it until recently.  Now, I am in the process of changing to a .40-65 for silhouette (different gun) and I am going to order a mountain molds mould in about a 300 gr bullet with larger lube grooves for chicken and pigs.  My specific reason for changing is to reduce recoil, reduce barrel weight for balance and use a lighter weight (and faster) bullet for chickens.

I like the lower recoil of the lighter bullets, but for chickens, I think the biggest advantage is not lighter recoil, but shorter barrel time.  Shorter barrel time leaves less time to wander around between trigger pull and bullet exit.

So, I've given a long winded answer to a simple question, but I think lighter bullets especially for the nearer targets make really good sense.

Y'all be good.

horsefly

Choken,

  Yes..... The problem of speed for the chicken bullet does present a problem. As you mention you have to get enuf MV to get the necessary accuracy. Here's the problem as I see it. What happens if the MV necessary is such that it negates any reduction in recoil?

  The old action-reaction thing raises it's head. A light bullet will have less recoil than a heavier one at the same MV, but if you raise the MV to far then you are back to square one and have the same recoil as the heavier bullet. If that happens then the argument can be raised...... why bother with a light bullet? Just use your full house load across the board.

Horsefly,

  I think the fact that you were able to find a bullet that would allow you to compress the powder charge is what made it so effective. As we all know when working up BP loads you start with zero compression and add either powder or wads to increase compression until suitable accuracy is obtained. Sounds like the bullet of yours was traveling at a good clip.

Glenn,

  You mention getting a bullet to travel fast enough to get to the Rams with as little vertical dispersion as possible. I didn't know vertical dispersion was dependent on speed? I've always been under the impression that consistency in MV was the key? As in low SD/ES's.

  But, you bring up something I've been trying to get on this thread from the beginning.

  I read in the Garbe/Venterino handbook where their load for a 400 gr. .40/65 amounts to 51 grs. of 2F...... I'm assuming Goex since Swiss wasn't available at the time it was written. This load has a MV of 1181 fps. Locally at least one shooter has had problems knocking the Rams over with a similar load, only using Swiss 1 1/2. He's told he needs more powder. 60 to 61 grs. if I recall right.

  Now I know that 59 grs. of Swiss 1 1/2 goes right at 1250 fps with a 417 gr. bullet, as that is the accuracy load in my gun. Using Winchester cases this amounts to .170" compression with a .060" Walters wad and with the bullet seated to just touch the lands.

  Ok! The question is..... Just what MV do I need to reliably knock over the Rams with a decent hit?

PETE

glenn, i ran a thread a few months ago about b.p c r accuracy and how much was necessary, and got some good response from it. on that thread i mentioned about working up separate loads for the different distances, [at least as far as chickens, pigs, and turkey/rams were concerned], and got responses back basically saying it was more trouble than it was worth. i'm still not convinced that it's not worth investigating. i think for me i'm going to break sillouette into two different load groups. chicken/ pigs, and turkey/rams. still relatively simple, but effective in principal. i'm thinking that 400 grain stuff should suffice for the first two easily, if accuracy permits, and a 500grain[ish] bullets for the billys and birds. even if i demands that i shoot goex for the first two and swiss for the other two. who knows??? i never minded the 430 grain stuff in the 40-65 so i guess i don't need to deviate too far from it on my lighter load .45 cal stuff. i'm glad i started this thread as there has been some awfully good info doled out and it's interesting to see the diversity of opinions shared by all of you. just goes too prove once again that there's more than one way to skin a cat......blue 8)

sorry glenn, can't be there...gotta' fly a top secret sortee that weekend.you can't help me with THAT one!!! our paths will cross though.....i'm sure. i'm also gonna' test out that 400-430 grain idea on rams, if accuracy permits....who knows???....thanks.....have some fun without me that weekend....the 'mysterious' blue 8)

First Shirt,

  I knew this head & Tail wind idea would come up.  I certainly agree with your thinking, but locally I find head or tail winds usually stay one way or the other and you can adjust your sights accordingly. I see your point if they would change back and forth at unpredictable moments. If the speed of either wind changes, as it normally does here, I would guess that it doesn't really matter what wgt. bullet you use if you're not on top of it you'll miss the Ram anyway since the bullet will be subsonic most of the way and most likely affected.

Blue,

  No idea is not worth trying if for no other reason than you put another nail in the coffin of the idea. With the chicken load idea it seems we have a split as to it's effectiveness so you & I should at least try the idea out in our guns to see what happens. All the good shooters will try any idea out they can think of. If it adds a Shilouette or two to their score it might make a difference in winning or losing. I know in Schuetzen it can come down many times to how many 25's you shoot that determines the winner. If it's still a tie then we use closest shot to the center as the tie breaker.

  Part of the reason for me trying out a lighter load is the fatique factor. The less fatique you experience as a match goes along the sharper you mind stays and the better your scores will be. It's why I use a lighter bullet and fixed ammo for those 100 shot offhand Schuetzen matches. I'm not good enuf to use the extra accuracy that breech seating would give me. I once shot 75 rds. of full house .50/90's in one day and I guarantee you that I didn't have any trouble sleeping that nite. I was REAL happy to fire off that last round! There are some that say they aren't affected by recoil. Not me! So if I can get acceptable accuracy with a reduced chicken load I'll use it, and if it increases my chicken count and causes less fatique, so much the better.

  I agree with you that a lot of good info is starting to come out in this thread.

Glenn,

  Good food for thought about different velocites, besides SD/ES's, making a difference in vertical spread. Hadn't thought of it that way. Will have to think on it a bit.

  I wish I knew more about Transonic velocities as I'm guessing that as our bullets pass thru that region they can be affected more than if they stayed supersonic all the way. Maybe this is the cause of vertical stringing even tho you have small SD's. Since the flight curve is downward at the time, and gravity affecting it also, I can see where some vertical dispersion would occur. I think as our bullets go from supersonic, to transonic, and then subsonic is why the idea of keeping the bullets subsonic all the way had such great appeal for a while. Also modern High Power shooters seem to want to keep their bullets supersonic all the way, even to 1000 yds. The Transonic region must do more to affect the bullets flight than we realise.

  I agree with your idea that a fast Ram load would be better than a slow one. Makes sense. I was assuming what the Garbe/Venterino handbook said would work, but locally this doesn't seem to be the excepted thinking, and is the reason why I wanted to get some input as to what you and others felt was exceptable. Actually a coupla of the local Shilouette shooters are on here and I wish they'd get in on this thread so I/we can learn why they think the way they do.

  My main thrust my whole shooting life, except once, has been to go with the most accurate load, but shooting Shilouette brings up the fact you also have to knock the target off the rail, which, I was thinking, might mean I would have to sacrifice some accuracy in order to do it. The exception was when I was shooting the NCOWS Buffalo match. In order to be able to shoot 25 rds. in under 10 minutes, you don't have time to blow tube or wipe out, so I had to adjust to a load that wasn't the most accurate.

  I do thank you for your response on this to. Nothing like sitting here wondering if the load you've worked up will do the job. Punching paper at 500 yds. is not like knocking over a 50 pd. Ram at 500 meters.

  You're saying a "heart" shot on the Ram is not especially good. Where would you suggest hitting them.... if possible.... for best results?

  And, yes. I know I'm gonna ring Rams. I can even see me ringing a chicken.  Altho that might get a little embarassing! Has anybody ever rung a chicken?

Greg,

  Thanks for making me feel good! When I do it I'll know of someone who beat me to it! 

  You need to do what we did after the first year of shooting the NCOWS Buffalo match I mentioned above.

  They set the targets in the dirt and you have to knock them over in order to have it count as a "kill". At the time they had three different sizes and the heaviest weighed at about 50 pds. The longest distance we shot them at was about 275 yds. No way of really knowing as they didn't know either, but that was where my sight setting said they should be.

  Well, my buddy and I were using .45/70's and altho we didn't have any "dingers" some of the farther ones out went over kind of slow. We decided the next year we were'nt gonna be caught in that situation again.

  So we put together a coupla .50/90's. Man! Does that ever slam them Shilouettes down.  After we got done shooting they turned the targets the other way. Something was said about the targets getting bent.  Not gonna make any claims it was our fault, but you never know!

  I did see one strange one like you had. Someone hit one of the heavy targets. The hind end reared up, hit the nose on the ground and came back down still standing. I have no idea how that could even happen.

  Just got done loading up some of those RCBS 40-300-CSA bullets with 59 to 62 grs. of 1F Goex and compression running from .050" to .170". If the weathers decent Monday will see what happens.

PETE

hi ho all,

first of all, i'd like to clear somethig up. the h,fly is a straight upward person.. he has NEVER dressed the truth.thats because you can't dress something you never said....

howsomever, he has dressed in a pink tu-tu now and again..

back in my sillhouette days i used a 45-110 for all the iron. used a 405gr bullet 25%lead and 75% lino. that alloy gave me plenty of 'hoop' strength to do the rams proud.. it allowed more energy to be transfered to the iron instead of generating heat and splat..

for a charge, 45gr to 70gr 2FF with the balance fillers seemed to get the job done with no pblms.. if a 405 seems a bit lite for rams, remember. the 40-65's seem to be taking over the game and they shoot a 400gr bullet with less 'hoop' strength than the 45's.

..ttfn..grampa..