feather,

  I'm not saying whether a soft, or hard bullet would be best for Shilouette. I just don't know.

  You bringing up that you think a bullet uses momentum rather than energy to knock down a Shilouette is interesting. I don't think I've seen that point suggested. Mostly it's suggested that dwell time on the target, and the energy that can be transferred in that amount of time dictates which is better. AND... there seems to be good arguments for both sides.

  The soft bullet side seems to be that more energy is transferred since it will stay on the target longer as it flattens out. The hard bullet advocates suggest that since no energy is wasted compressing the bullet there is more energy transferred to the target.

  The more I think on this the more confused I get as I can see merit in both sides. So, might just be a case of what works best in your gun, and it's a 50/50 toss-up as to which is better.

  On Pioneers and accuracy.

  It's not mentioned a whole lot but the Buffalo hunters did wipe their bores out after so many shots. Never have seen what would be an average but it appears all carried a wiping stick and canteen for the job. It purported that when they ran out of  that water they used a natural source.  Since most of the prime robes were taken during the Winter they would also put their rifles into a snow bank if it got to hot. It was thought, at the time, that a gun that got to hot lost it's accuracy. Possibly cooling the barrel down drew in enuf moisture to make a succeeding shot clean the hard fouling out.

  On the accuracy issue..... I don't know where they got their figures but one source said that it took an average of 4 + shots for each Buffalo killed. So much for the deadeye Buffalo hunters!

PETE

Hi Pete,

I believe that energy from the bullet is transferred to the target.  The question is....Is that energy transferred only in a straight line?

If all the energy from the force of the bullet impacting is directed in a straight line then maximum energy would be transferred within the diameter of the bullet.  However, if the energy radiates outward as well as straght ahead at the point of impact, then the energy transferred toward toppling the animal becomes spread out over a much larger area.  Which do you think happens?

feather

feather,

  What do I think happens?..... Here my lack of Physics(?) shows up as I don't know if energy spread out over a large area would be more effective than the energy transferred to a smaller point. My gut feeling would go with the softer bullet. But......

  You inadvertently brought up a point I didn't think of. We have forgotten that the trajectory coming in on the Turkeys and Rams, at least, isn't straight on. But it would be the same whether for a light or hard bullet. Possibly the hard bullet would "skid" off the target whereas the soft one might "grab" a bit better.

  Interesting! We need someone who knows about this stuff to chime in.

  I've thought about your comment not to get the cartridges mixed up and have already thought of Horsefly's way of doing it. Good point tho about bringing enuff ammo in case you get into a shootoff.

undersized bullets.

  Interesting comments. I've never used them since I feel just the difference between the land top and groove bottom would be enuf to affect accuracy with the collapse of the bullet.

  One of the irregulars on here has a barrel chambered as was mentioned. No throat. He's used it with bore sized PP bullets in Schuetzen shooting and hasn't gotten anything like decent enuf accuracy. From what I've seen he would be pushing his luck to even hit the Chickens with cross sticks.

  But, seems like you've got a method that works better than his.

Horsefly,

  Got the biggest laugh out of your reference to whether you might have enuf "natural" water at the beginning of a fight. Well taken! 

Blue,

  Yes. You're right about havng wandered off the topic a bit. But, take into consideration what feather, horsefly, and I have been saying. Lube is important in your "lighter" bullet and going to a lighter bullet, which translates into a shorter bullet, means less of it, so that has to be a consideration in picking it out from a whole host of possibilities. Then there's alloy. Again a shorter/lighter bullet by it's nature doesn't have enuf length in it's shank and might be subject to nose collapse if not taken into consideration..... A point I'm going to have to try out myself.

  So, even tho we've gotten away from what is a good light wgt. "Chicken" bullet, we have given you a whole bunch of ideas, and the thinking that goes with it, to help you make the right choice. A particular bullet we might recommend might not work in your rifle but the thinking behind our recommendations will at least keep you from making poor choices.

PETE

Howdy folks.  This is my first post here.  I have been shooting BPCR at Ackley, Iowa for a couple of years.  I have been shooting rifle silhouette off and on since the mid 1970s, but have limited experience with the BPCR version.  The only reason I mention this is because, Iowa being geographically silhouette-deprived, I believe I am probably the only shooter in this area who has experience shooting on different full-size sillhouette ranges.  A couple of points about Ackley (and I won't mind being corrected if my facts are off a bit).  As noted, the BPCR silhouette events are still under development.  The range conditions, particularly the lighting and lack of dirt berms, make some of the targets very difficult to see.  I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but it may bother shooters who are very score and/or classification conscious.  IMO, it is a good thing that silhouette isn't a "groove" event where a perfect score is the goal.  BTW, the NRA classification system isn't used - all shooters compete equally. I am particularly conscious of the Ackley range because on occasion I shoot BPCR there on Saturday, then drive to Omaha to shoot HP silhouette with my son on Sunday.  The constrast between the ranges is significant, Omaha being a well-established range, and Ackley being more primitive - more like actual field shooting.  Target visibilty is much better at Omaha.  Another point is that the Cedar Valley Rangers, being an NCOWS affiliated group, period dress is expected, including the silhouette matches.  My observation is that they are not at all purists about total authenticity, but good manners dictate that shooters make a good faith effort to follow the spirit of the rules.  However, new shooters are always welcome, even if they aren't "dressed".  As previously discussed here, the non-NRA-type silhouettes like the buffalo shoots are a ball.  A couple of points of clarification.  I'm not sure that these are all NCOWS sanctioned matches, but may be just the local Cedar Valley Regulators.  Another point is that the buffalo matches are not herds of 25 shot over four days as Pete said, but typically are two herds a day for two days.

Paul

Pete:  Re: post 110 where you mention possibly a harder bullet might "skid" off the target.  I'm not sure of this alloy thing, but I prefer a softer bullet for impact knock down and here I'm talking about the bigger heavier ram weight or buffalo targets.  Just seems to work better in real shooting at least for me.  For chicken size and weight targets I don't think it really makes any difference. The other thing I have found is that the bullet shape especially the nose shape and or alloy certainly seems to me to make a differance on the heavier targets..  I have tried the sharp pointed Lyman Schmitzer (sp) three grease groove pointed bullet around 485-500 gr thing.  This was a very accurate bullet and load out to about 300yds. I found that shooting at the buffalo I had any number of what appeared good hits, but the bullet skipped or actually "skidded" off the target, simply ringing it and not knocking it down.  I lay this to the angle that the bullet hit the target and the sharp pointed nose shape of the bullet. The sharp pointed nose of the bullet skidded off without imparting near as much energy on to the target.  This may have been  exasperated more do to the fact that the buffalo targets do not all set at direct square angles to the shooter and thus the bullet strikes the target and deflects in one direction or another. And again the trajectory angle of the bullet probally also adds to this mess.  Bottom line here is though that the sharp pointed bullets regardless of alloy, have a much greater potential to vere off and do not impart the energy needed.   Best regards steve witt

Hi Paul:  I'm not sure its quite as easy as heavy, soft, and blunt, but in essence yes. Here is what I like, and its just a personnal "what works for me".  Its all pretty subjective and open to way to much debate.  For me this works fairly well, its not for everybody, and I'm not interested in converting anybody over. I'd be glad to help anyone, and I'm always interested in learning.  Right now I'm mostly intersted in the aspects of lube, for all this, and I must admit I'm somewhat perplexed by it.  But onward::: From .38 to .50 calibur, I prefer the .45, either 45-70 or 45-90, with the 45-90 by far the best overall.  Hopefully without sounding like a gamer, I simply think the 45-90 gives me the best knock down odds, and works the best for Creedmoor distances. In a nut shell: I prefer the .45 calibur, but If I were shooting a .38 or .40, (.50's are a little much for me) I'd stick to the same formula. I use the most "accurate" 1 1/2 MOA load I can develope with the heaviest, softest, Creedmoor style nose, bullet travelling at the highest velocity possible. The key here is putting it together to maintain the consistant "accuracy" level you need, can shoot to (at least some of the time) and want. And I might add that "accuracy" out of the gun has a lot to do with the various fowling control methods you choose.  I use a varity of methods, depending on the type match.  For instance I usually blow on silhouette, brush often on Buffalo, and may very well patch the bore on Creedmoor.  Its more of a how much time do I have to do the fowling control in a particular match under what are the given conditions for the day.    I use this for Buffalo, Silhouette, mid-range and Creedmoor.  At the beginning of the season, I pick one rifle, and usually shoot it exclusively for the season.  I don't change rifles, caliburs, or loads very often.   This is not to say loads can not be tailored for various purposes, I just don't have much need to do it, and the more I shoot the same gun the better I get the feel of it..   At the chicken line or at the little knock down targets (little buffalo) 200M or less, I don't think anything but an "accurate" load is needed. The leep of faith here is that the shooter can and does do his part.  That asside. hit them with about anything legal to shoot and they most likly will go.   Now its somewhat of a horse of another color at the Rams or the large heavy Buffalo.  I'm talking knockdown here. Again you still need that "accurate" load that shoots consistantly well in your rifle and be able to do your part.  Setting aside wind doping, spotting etc, I certainly believe big, (as in .45) heavy, fast, and soft, bullets are most important for knock down. Blunt bullets well, yes ,but I prefer a rounded Postell , or Creedmoor style nose.  Blunt for hunting yep, and they probally work about as well at distance, but, for me the rounded style I think is a little more accurate.  I'd add in I like the bullet travelling as fast as possible, and still maintain the accuracy.  I'm not saying you don't get more wind deflection with a faster bullet, but I think its a trade off and I think you get less vertical dispersion with faster, plus better bullet knock down momentum.  Heavier bullets have more momentum and I believe they off set the wind defelection of moving the bullet faster some.  Looking forward to next season.   Best regards steve witt

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At least you went - I have had good success in my .45.  But the .38 won't shoot anything - bore, groove or any other diameter.  At least not for more than about 4 shots.